Getting married is not like boiling eggs. When you boil eggs the recipe is there which tells you exactly how long to cook them for soft boiled and how long for hard boiled. When you attempt to establish a "recipe" for how long a couple should date you are dabbling with disaster.
One thing we do know. The further to the right you go, the shorter the dating time allowed for a couple before they have to make a decision of yes, this is my zivug, or no, this is not my zivug. Some yeshivot, rebbis, parents set a 6-date maximum, some an 8-date maximum. Why? Let's dispel any notion that this is a halachic issue--it's not. If this time "rule" were written somewhere, anywhere, rabbanim would have quoted it chapter and verse long ago. It is a "protective" issue. The reasoning seems to be that the longer a male and female go out, the more danger there is of inappropriate behavior occurring between them. The point where they might be getting to know each other and be able to relax in each other's company also signals a point where they might become "too relaxed." If they are getting to like each other the reasoning is that they might like each other too much. Let's leave that issue for just a moment.
In your life you will be called on to make many important decisions. One might be where to go to college, or whether to go at all. What profession should you go into? Another might be on where to buy a home. For each of these decisions the advice is "take your time and think this through thoroughly. Your decision will affect the rest of your life." No one, but no one puts a time limit on the thinking. They are worried that too little research, too little thinking might result in a bad decision. And if you truly have had no idea as regards whatever you are being asked to decide on, the advice is to go really slowly. As one friend put it "a college major is a decision you have to live with the rest of your life. Make sure it really fits you and is not just something you are choosing because someone else told you to do so." Good advice really. Take your time and really know your own mind before making the decision.
You decide that you need to buy a car. Do you just walk into any car dealer and hope that the right car will "reach out and grab you"? If you are being smart you will put in the hours of research necessary. What models are available? How do the different brands compare? What are the safety features? How are the models you are considering rated? What are the added features each model presents? What is the cost now and for future upkeep? You take each model for a test drive, sometimes more than one. Typically, most people spend weeks/months on deciding on a car to buy.
You need a "special" outfit for a wedding or other simcha. You pray that you will find it on your first shopping expedition, but you also know that it could take "forever" until you find just the right outfit. There is no rational way to describe this to anyone. Even if you could say "I'm looking for a navy blue outfit" that would not mean "any" navy outfit. Basically, you'll know the outfit when you see it, and that could take days of shopping, weeks even, and yes, sometimes months. The more "special" the occasion, the more time that gets put in.
Watch people in a paint store trying to decide on what color to paint the walls in their home. They look at all the colors, they narrow down the field to a particular color family, they look at them side by side, they put the color cards next to other colors to see how they will harmonize, they take the color sample cards home and look at them taped up on the wall. They check the durability of the type of paint. And eventually they come to a decision. Imagine that: choosing paint is not as simple as walking into the store, down the aisle, pointing to a can and saying "that one please."
And yet....Our present dating system is basically telling us to make the decision that will affect us most in our lives and to do so in less time then you might spend on choosing a major, buying an outfit, buying a car or choosing a paint color. "The rules" imply that every one of us is identical to all the others, and that our thinking processes are identical also. If person "A" can make a decision on his/her zivug in 6 dates then everyone else should be able to do so also. What nonsense.
No combination of two people on a date is ever identical to any other two people on a date. In fact, no date is ever the same for any one person seeing more than one person. How many possible marriages have never come to fruition because at 6 or 8 dates one or both of the people were just "not quite sure" and the process was ended?
I'll go on record as saying that our dating couples are not spending enough time dating. And not only that, so many of the chumras that are put on what topics of conversation are appropriate or which ones should not be raised until after an engagement are just so much hooey. One well known "authority" on frum dating has stated that under no circumstances should a dating couple find themselves in actual disagreement over something--you know, having an argument or having a fight. Such "negativity" will take away from what they should be finding out while dating.
We are told that there are three ways to "know" a person: B'kiso, B'koso and B'kaaso: observing them where they live and in their everyday activities, observing them when under the influence of alcohol and observing them when they are angry. None of these are available to dating couples. The last, should you date long enough to actually find something that you might disagree about, can be helpful. What is this person like when things don't go their way? How do they handle frustration? What are they like when they are angry? Can I deal with their method of dealing? Am I going to have enough time before someone pressures me to make a decision to work out with this person some basics of communication that will satisfy both of us? Some of these "anger" differences are male/female and a compromise will need to be reached by both parties. Some are red flags that say "run, run fast!"
Okay, we want to put some sort of "cutoff" to the dating process. It is true that some people just might date for months and months and still not get to the point of knowing anything important. Those people need "help" of a different kind. Perhaps what we need to be talking about is a dating "minimum" not a dating "maximum." That's right, a 6 to 8 date minimum. And perhaps double that as the outside parameter. In short, dating time should have a sensible range, recognizing that not all people "learn" at the same pace.
Just a word now about the "inappropriate thoughts/behavior" issue. Here is a unique thought. Instead of setting unrealistic dating "rules," instead of worrying all out of proportion, perhaps rebbis and parents ought to be concentrating on teaching the principles of self control. You know, where a person learns to control impulses that are not allowed or are not beneficial? And I'll climb out even further on this lonely limb and say this. Those "inappropriate" thoughts? They better be there at some point in the dating process. "Physical" attraction had better be there if a couple is considering marriage. The physical aspect of a marriage is part of the glue that holds the marriage together. It's not the thoughts that are the problem; it is acting on those thoughts before you are supposed to that is the problem, and that is where the education needs to be.
In far too many cases, the 6-date recipe is resulting in inedible dishes--we are way overdue to change the recipe.
10 comments:
"B'kiso, B'koso and B'kaaso"
I like this, but it made me think of something funny. Maybe we need to require all prospective couples (and their families?) to submit financial statements and videos of everyday life to each other. And maybe for the 4'th date, the man has to arrive drunk, and for the 5'th date, the woman has to arrive drunk. And on the 6'th date, they have to make each other angry. :-)))))
Anonymous,
The financial part is already being done by far too many people. One of my cousins had prospective muchatanim do a Dun and Bradstreet rating on her parents, and this where the boy was earning a good living on his own and parental support was not an issue.
I think we can skip the drunk dating part, although I wouldn't mind someone's asking what the guy is like on Purim and Simchas Torah. "Ad lo Yodoh" doesn't always translate well in action.
As to the anger, let's take it to the level of disagreement. A shidduch made by someone in the neighborhood did not survive the engagement period because the couple could come to no agreement on where to live and did not know just how important this was to both of them, nor did they know that "stubborness" was something they both had in spades. Add in a "b'kiso" element as well. The kallah spent a Shabbos with her in laws to be and absolutely hated the lifestyle she saw in the house, a lifestyle her choson loved. The choson spent a Shabbos with his kallah's family and absolutely hated the lifestyle he saw, a lifestyle she loved. Just as clearly, neither one had been taught just what the word compromise means. But hey, at the end of 7 dates all parties to this shidduch were absolutely positive that this was a "zivug made in heaven."
I was told by a very prominant Rebbetzin that a prospective 'couple' must go on at least two or three 8-10 hour dates. Why?, because you can't really know someone after just a couple of hours. What are they like after they get hungry or tired or bored? How do they react if they get lost? The longer you spend with someone , the easier it is to see if you are comfortable with them through the talking and the silences, etc.
I don't know if the Sholom task force is available everyplace in ny, or just in the five towns, but at any rate girls should be taught and be aware of the warning signs of an abusive individual. A boy should be taught how to treat a woman (aside from his mother) respecfully.
I don't think that there is one recipe that works for everybody. It really is a play it by ear kind of thing. I knew it was the "right one" after four dates. my friend went out for many months and lots of dates before she said "forget it".
What's most important is that the boy and girl have someone in their life that they can trust and confide in if things are going wrong even days before a wedding. They need support to get out of a situation that they know is bad, wrong, embarresing. For those who do not get that support it really is a recipe for disaster!
Unfortunately you hear about a lot of shidduchim that break up in the engagement stage. Stuff happens during that stage that you can't know about when you are dating no matter how long you date the person. You don't meet his parents or see the home until things are already a shidduch. How would dating longer help this? I agree that people should have all the time they need to make a decision and that this time is not the same for every girl or boy but there is only so much you can find out when you are dating.
Just a note here,
I believe that it was YU, but please don't hold me to this now, that told its boys that a girl should meet a boy's parents way before there was any idea of a shidduch or not. After all, the boys parents are also part of the equation. A girl's parents meet the boy every time he picks her up. Why should a boy's parents be considered any less "choshuv"?
You have to wonder how any of us ever get married when there are all these crazy rules and formulas we have to follow or else.
Just about the major and the car and the paint, at least with those if you think you made a mistake you can change the major and the paint or get rid of the car. It's not so simple when it is a marriage that isn't what you thought it would be. Maybe we need a new slogan...More time, less mistakes.
My cousin was red the son of friends of her parents. Every one assumed that they wouldn't have to date even 6 times because after all they had known each other almost all of their life. It took them ten dates to discover this was not a shidduch. I think a lot of it was that they had to get past all the family things they knew and get to the personal things they didn't know. Why can't we just have the time we need instead of going by somebody elses ideas of what is enough time.
I bet that if we didn't have any time limits on dating we would still be able to say yes or no pretty much by 8 dates. but knowing that you have to say yes or no by then adds pressure and stress that means you can't concentrate on finding out what you want to know.
I think the anonymous who mentioned the 8-10 hour dates was right. For 2 or 3 hours most people can manage to be polite and not get into trouble with something they say or do. But then dating for a longer amount of time and having the dates be in different situations can also show you different things about the other person. Maybe you need both things, some dates that last many hours and dating for a longer time.
"8 to 10 hours"
Even 8 to 10 hours isn't enough, that's one of the reasons I am convinced that 10 dates (maybe 30-40 hours) isn't nearly enough to properly decide to be married. Maybe 10 months is more like it (in many cases)!
When I was young, I was set up very often, especially between age 22 and 29, but mostly was being set up by well-meaning folks who simply believe "boy" + "girl" + "within 8 years of age" = "great shidduch". But that doesn't always work, and didn't work very well for me.
After all those years, I mostly stopped accepting set-ups except from a few (very few) people whose judgment I highly respected. Then I decided to find my own shidduchim, obviously this was only acceptable because I am MO and not Charedi, and after a few years, during Sukkot, I met the woman who would become my wife, and we were engaged right after Pesach, and were married on Tu Be-Av.
Now we have 5 children, and yeshiva tuitions, but that is another thread :-)
"Financial statements, D&B ratings"
For any number of reasons I think this is a repugnant thing to do. First of all, I believe that a couple should maintain themselves financially. Second of all, are people of fewer means somehow less deserving of a shidduch? Finally, such behavior has proven to be very bad genetically, as all the rich people end up "intermarrying" and eventually causing a defective gene pool amongst themselves.
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