Friday, October 12, 2007

Another Answer to the Tuition Dilemma

I am not the first person to offer the following as a solution to the problem of tuition. Actually the people who have been offering the solution in the past few years aren't the first people either. The idea was floating around even thirty years ago. But all it has done is float.

The solution is basically a combination of public school and yeshiva; our children would be the responsibility of the public school system in the morning, for free, and then have yeshiva in the afternoon. From a financial point of view the yeshivot would cut their cost for teaching staff at least in half. Their supply budget would also be reduced. Yeshivot would go out of the business of secular education, something they aren't too happy to be in to begin with. Why has this remained only talk?

First, this idea has already been seen in practice many years ago. In Williamsburg, when I arrived in New York, many of the girls in the area attended public school. There were so many of them that basically they had their own classrooms in the public school they attended. Whatever the community deemed necessary as far as a yeshiva education took place after public school hours. Keep in mind that the chasidishe community in general does not "hold" with education for their girls, secular or Jewish. Since the government mandates education for both sexes, let the government pay for it was the general idea.

Also back many years ago people would start out a conversation with "They should be paying us what it would cost them to educate our kids. After all, what would they do if we all came down in the first week of September and registered all of our children in their public schools? There would be absolutely no room available in the schools." We are not talking about school vouchers here. We are talking about counting the yeshivot as legitimate venues of education, requiring direct funding for the secular portion of the children's education.

Today asking the question of what would happen to the local public schools if all students presently in yeshiva were to enroll there has some import. What would happen? In the areas with heavy Jewish populations the result would be chaos for the Board of Education. In Brooklyn alone dozens of new schools would need to be built to accommodate the influx of additional students. But what would happen until those schools were built?

The local schools simply could not accommodate the frum students, but they would be required to accommodate them by law. As has been done before, they would need to rent space until money and location could be found to build the new required schools. We are talking about millions and millions of dollars here. They would also need to find and hire teaching and administrative staff for these schools. Add more millions of dollars. Then there is the required supplies and equipment such as computers and science labs. Add more millions. And while they were finding the money and the staff what would happen to all the registered new students? The Board would still be required to educate them, even though there is no way that they could. The teacher's union has already settled the idea of maximum class size, so they couldn't just try and squeeze us into the existing facilities. Many schools are already on the "shift" idea, whereby some students attend school in the morning and another shift comes in the afternoon because of lack of space. Anyone know how to spell lawsuits? Add to the city's costs the cost of the litigation they would be forced into.

One problem is the separation of church and state. Having the city or the state give funds directly to the yeshivot to pay for the cost of educating the yeshiva students in secular subjects would violate this principle, at least on paper. It is already being "violated" in many ways: yeshivot get NYSTL textbooks; yeshivot get funding for breakfast and lunch programs; yeshiva students get school buses; yeshivot qualify for computers to be used in classrooms etc. And yes, to get all the services they are getting the yeshivot have to state that they do not discriminate according to sex, race or national origin. Technically, if a non-Jewish student from Haiti wanted to register at Chaim Berlin the school would have to admit him, as long as he could pay the tuition asked and would abide by the code of behavior of the school.

The problem is not really one of church and state but one of public versus private. There are certain basic requirements regarding secular subjects that private schools must meet, but the private schools decide when, where, how much and how often. Teaching staff are not required to meet the same standards that public school teachers must meet. There is far less oversight of private schools then there is of public schools. And that is the crux of the problem. Not even if they received millions of dollars in funding, not even if all their limudei chol teachers were provided for them, not even if all the special services that students in the City are entitled to would suddenly materialize--like free speech therapy and hearing therapy and special education--will the yeshivot give up their oversight privileges.

For one thing, limudei kodesh might need to be moved to the afternoons. For another, the time devoted to limudei chol would most certainly be extended. Subject matter that has been skirted around would become part of the curriculum.

Okay, if this is all true, then why am I suggesting registering in public school as a solution to the tuition problem? Klal Yisroel, as a group, needs to learn to be a better poker player. We are actually holding a pair of open aces--the sheer number of students whom the public school system would need to accommodate and accommodate now. So the Board of Education thinks we are bluffing? We wouldn't really register? Then register! Note: I didn't say attend yet. The absolute chaos created might be enough to get the state and the city to negotiate a "truce." And if they call our bluff? Attend, or try to attend, for three days, for one week. In Brooklyn, at least, doing so would basically shut down the school system. Maybe we might "win" the "whole pot" or maybe we would have to split that "pot" with the state, but we are definitely holding a winning hand.

While the debate on school vouchers for students to choose the school of their choice continues and will continue for a long time yet, we have a different tool that we are not trying. Yes, yeshivot might have to meet certain standards as regards secular education. For the yeshivot that are already meeting or surpassing these standards there would be no problem. And frankly, for those who are not meeting the standards it would be of benefit to their students if they did so. How would you like to cut your tuition bill or know that when you are going to have to pay tuition it will be lower? How about cutting $3000 to $5000 off that bill? How about even a $2000 reduction? And what if it were lots more? Even with all the full scholarships that a large number of yeshiva students receive, if the yeshivot were relieved of the expenses of limudei chol or a large part of those expenses, tuition would have to drop.

Until we try we will never know if we could have "won" something. We are holding bargaining tools that are getting rusty from disuse.

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

What a delicious thought. Too bad you can't get two Jews to agree on something like that.

Scraps said...

I have to say, that's one of the cleverest solutions to the tuition problem I've heard so far. Granted, it would only work in places where the influx of Jewish kids into the public school system would shut it down (like Brooklyn, Monsey, or Lakewood), but for those areas where it could work, I'd say it's a great idea.

Anonymous said...

It sounds like a good idea but if it is such a good idea you would think that someone in the last years would already have thought of it and put it into action. Jews are pretty smart. Maybe there is something here that we aren't seeing?

Anonymous said...

IMHO, that is NOT the right solution to the tuition problem. Not only would that create chaos in the public school system, it would also result in a war between public school parents and private school parents. (Look at what's happening with the Lawrence school board, for example). It would stir up all kinds of anti-semitism and anti-Orthodox hatred. The government officials who make decisions about funding for private schools also have children in the public school system. They would certainly not look favorably on this imposition.

I don't have a system-wide solution to propose, but here's an idea: There is nothing in halacha that requires you to have 10 children, esp. if you can't afford to educate all of them properly. You can actually stop after you have a boy and a girl (it's called the pill; it was invented in the 60's; there are halachic authorities that will allow you to use it). I'm not saying that noone should have more that 2 children. If you can afford to support 10 children, then go right ahead. But if you can't, don't continue to have children, just because you are afraid or embarrassed to talk to a Rav about the enormous financial strain that more children would cause you.

Obviously, consult with a Halachic authority first, but this common sense solution seems to be overlooked in most frum families.

ProfK said...

frummom,
Hope you don't mind if my comments on your comment are split up. Until someone pointed out to me that this posting had been quoted on another blog I had never heard of that blog. I went to go look and read through some of the archives there as well. It seems to me, as regards the Lawrence problem, that there is plenty of anti-semitism/anti-Orthodox Jew feeling already. Attempting to flood the Board of Ed would not be stirring things up--they are already stirred up.

Can't speak for Lawrence but Staten Island is a very private school borough, with Catholic schools in abundance and large numbers of other private schools.yeshivot included, although we are in the minority. The last few years have found us with a large influx of immigrants, many latinos, as well. These immigrants mostly express the desire to send their kids to private religious schools as soon as they can afford to.

We also have a highly rated public school district, although there are some schools on the watch list. School Boards here are not comprised of only parents who send their kids to public school. Many teachers, principals and administrators have their kids in private schools here. If it were up to our borough alone, school vouchers would have passed a long time ago, and this in a heavily Republican borough.

The idea I put forth might not work in your area, or in other areas, but it might well have success, or at least partial success, in an area like mine. It would "only" require that all the private schools, regardless of denomination, unite for the purpose of bargaining. Politics creates strange bedfellows.

Anti-semitism is alive and well here but at least in the US we have protective laws in place. People will talk about us? I didn't realize that they ever stopped talking about us. Hatred towards Jews is not going to go away because we play least in sight. (They tried that in Europe--the Churban was the result.) Since they are going to hate us anyway, why not at least try and get something that we are actually entitled to, or change things so there is at least a small benefit accruing to us?

ProfK said...

frummom,

Sorry for the delay, but regarding the limiting of family size, what you suggest doesn't deal with the problem that exists right now--the children who are already born and who need to be educated. And yes, their children and children's children on down the line, even if they were to limit their family size to two children, assuming everyone had a boy and a girl first.

Smaller families are some people's answers. There needs to be something in place for those for whom it is not the answer.

I'd also like to add this. On the blog where I believe you first came to know about this posting, there was a comment that boggled my mind and still does, that is applicable here. The person said that "with $250,00 in income I'm having trouble meeting the required expenses and I only have 3 kids." Hmmm, a small family and still can't meet all the expenses. Maybe there is another problem?

Anonymous said...

To ProfK,

I totally agree with your second statement about limiting family size. That's why I prefaced my comment about small families with "I don't have a system-wide solution to propose." Birth control is not going to help anyone pay Yeshiva tuition for the children that they already have. I, too, am struggling to pay for 2 Yeshiva tuitions with a combined household income of $150,000 (that includes rent income from owning a 2-family house, plus my kids are only in preschool now).

As an aside, someone suggested on the other blog the solution is that I don't have to live in New York, where the mortgage on my home is ridiculously expensive. While it is true that I have the option to move out of NY, I have some important reasons for staying here, namely: 1) I want my children to be near their grandparents 2) The Rav that we consult, and with whom my husband learns is in NY. 3) I like having a choice of a few different Yeshivot for my children. 4) I wouldn't be able to earn the salary that I do now if I lived outside of NY.

Re. your other comment, that anti-Semitism already exists, so why not get what we're entitled to.
Just because anti-Semitism already exists doesn't mean that it's ok to exacerbate it. Flooding the public school system with new registrants is a surefire way to turn hidden hatreds into full-scale war. If they hate me in their heart, it's not my problem. When they start to throw rocks through my windows, then it becomes a problem.

Also, I don't agree that we are "entitled" to the benefits that the government provides for public school students. It is a wonderful thing that the U.S. government has institutionalized mandatory and free education for all citizens. But there are countries where there is no public education system, and if I lived there I would still have the obligation to give my children a Jewish and secular education. Just because others are getting a free pass doesn't mean that we are entitled to it also.

Anonymous said...

frummom - "Also, I don't agree that we are "entitled" to the benefits that the government provides for public school students. It is a wonderful thing that the U.S. government has institutionalized mandatory and free education for all citizens. But there are countries where there is no public education system, and if I lived there I would still have the obligation to give my children a Jewish and secular education. Just because others are getting a free pass doesn't mean that we are entitled to it also."

Why exactly don't you feel entitled? Just because you are obligated to educate your children doesn't mean that you don't have the right, and perhaps even the obligation, to find the best way to educate them, including taking into account the best financial solution.

Also, it's no "free lunch", it is something that we pay for via our taxes. Not to mention that we generally have higher incomes than average and thus pay more in taxes (and usually have larger more expensive homes that also have higher property taxes, for those states that fund education primarily via property taxes).

Finally, I've always meant to ask my Rav if it is halachically permissible to send ones kids to a private, expensive Yeshiva, if it conflicts with ones ability to properly give tzedaka. In our case, we could write a Sefer Torah, and lehavdil buy a new car, every single year if we didn't have to pay tuition for our 5 children.

Anonymous said...

I am a public school parent in Lawrence school district. I think your idea of enrolling yeshiva students to public schools might work. Yes, it will create initial chaos, but all problems can be resolved - to the benefit of both yeshiva and public students. And it will not create any new anti-semitic feelings because you have a right to be in public school. Unfortunately, it seems to me that in my district the goal of orthodox community is not a better or cheaper way to educate their children but forcing us out of our homes by destroying public school. Please, try to prove me wrong.

ProfK said...

Worried,

As an "outsider" to the five towns I have been reading the discussion on the school district problems with some interest. Let me offer you this. It seems that the underlying problem that no one is actually discussing has more to do with a desire to keep the neighborhood just as it has always been. There seems to be no understanding that neighborhoods wax and wane and that change is inevitable.I honestly don't think that the neighborhood would have been any happier had large groups of Catholics moved in and established a network of religious schools for their kids. And I don't think they would have been any happier if any other group had moved in "en mass." I'll give the neighborhood the benefit of the doubt that they are not racists or anti-semitic per se. They just hate change.

Had no other group moved into the Lawrence district and had the population in the neighborhood remained exactly the same as before the influx of orthodox Jews, you still would have had school problems and change. How do schools "stay alive"? There has to be a steady stream of students who come in every year. There needs to be, for each graduating class, an equal number of students coming into first grade. This only happens if there are sufficient families in the neighborhood with young children. This was going to be a problem for you no matter what.

There are a limited number of homes in the district. If no one moves out then once all the children finish with school the school will have to close. Younger couples have to constantly be funneled into the neighborhood in order for it to stay vibrant. Your particular neighborhood is problematic for young couples to begin with, due to the cost of real estate and the real estate taxes.

Second, there have always been private school parents in the five towns area. Why the seeming "hatred" of that group now? In part, the numbers are larger now, and in part this is a reaction to a problem "caused" by those who lived there first. Unless a whole bunch of you are willing to reduce the prices of your homes and provide incentives for young couples with school-aged children--which seemingly is NOT the case--you are going to have emptier schools regardless of the private school parents in the neighborhood.

In short, there is more than one "problem" that needs addressing.