I had no intention of writing a posting on Friday, erev Shabbos, but someone passed along a comment that was made, and here I am typing.
A lot of commentary on the blogosphere and elsewhere focused on the amount of money spent on making Purim Seudah. And a lot of the comments were less than complimentary. Many were of the "Do you know how much money Person X spent on Seudah this year?!" type of comment. No, I don't know. Further, unless this person owes me a pile of money, or owes anyone else a pile of money, I don't care. Usually this type of comment is followed by a smugly uttered "I spent way less and had a beautiful Seudah. Who are these other people trying to impress?"
Now, if Person Q should happen to say "I'm really short on money this year and I don't know where or how to cut down expenses on my Purim Seudah," then Person W could be applauded for offering to share any money saving methods. But mostly this doesn't happen. Mostly people make comments about other people's spending without being asked for their input.
We seem to spend an awful lot of time stirring the contents of other people's pots. Perhaps it's more than past time to keep our noses firmly anchored in our own pots. Once, it was considered a rank breach of etiquette to ask a hostess how much a meal cost, not to mention its being social suicide. Going backwards might be a real improvement over today. Unless someone is asking you to pay for that meal, all that is required is a "thank you for inviting me." And this goes for everyone who was not a guest at someone else's table. Why should you know or care what that person spent in preparing a meal?
Here's the deal: I won't ask you how much money you spent on a meal and you won't ask me either. I won't make comments about your food spending habits and you won't make comments about mine. I have always refused to play the game of one-up-manship, whether that game is the version of "I spent more than you did, so there!" or whether it was the version of "I spent less than you did, so there!"
Just by the way, the comment that got my dander up was about a hostess who served roast beef to a guest list numbering over twenty. She apparently compounded this sin by also offering a roast turkey and a large variety of side dishes. And--gasp!--she served champagne as her wine offering. And this is anyone else's business just why? Last I heard this woman was not on the public dole, was employed, has a husband who is employed, pays her own bills, is not a recipient of tzedaka funds for the impoverished and doesn't spend money to impress or depress other people.
10 comments:
hellooo...can we say Leshon Harah??
The last year that my father in law was alive he gave me a large sum of money and said to make a Purim seuda to remember. He knew that he would not be alive to see another Purim and he wanted it to be the best of everything. He told us that his time for saving was ending and if he didn't spend on something memorable, when would he spend it. 34 members of the family and close friends of his sat down to a really beautiful and lush seuda. I counted no cost in making that seuda and yes, the table groaned under the weight of everything I could think of that would yell special to him.
I didn't go around telling the world the circumstances for this seuda but the world had no problem in discussing it anyway. Shorty is right. All that talk was nothing but loshon horah, and it hurt when it got back to me. It would sure help if people would learn to keep their mouths shut.
And this is anyone else's business just why?
So if it is no one else's business, I take it that you also oppose the Rabbanim imposing limits on the sizes of wedding, bar mitzvah, and other parties.
I wonder if there is any halacha regarding how opulent a lifestyle one is permitted to live, or how publicly one is permitted to display such opulence, while the community around them is straining under economic difficulty?
And, Shorty, I agree that such talk is often loshon harah.
Mark
People are unbelievable.
As long as someone's name is in the dirt then nobody is happy...yet!
It seems that people should just say thank you and maybe comment on how tasty the food is, but no that is no longer enough. Now, they have to leave your house, and talk about you.
I hope that hostess doesn't invite those people back!
What is interesting to me is that so many in the community came out with comments on how Mishloach manot should be cut down and the expenses should be limited, but nobody comments on how to cut down.
We went to an excellent Purim Seudah, and everyone brought something, the hostess of course does a lot but in this case everyone did something and felt good about it. I like the idea of a potluck. Maybe this hostess should do a potluck next year...and the ones discussing her, can chip in on the expenses!
Mark,
I have no opposition if the rabbanim wanted to get up and say there is no requirement to look at what your neighbor's did when making a simcha. I would not oppose their saying that keeping up with the Shwartzes is not a halachic requirement and shouldn't be a social one either. I would not oppose their telling people that there are no requirements for who should or should not be invited to a simcha. I would not oppose their telling people that hurt feelings, based on some half-cocked social pressure, should not be a deciding factor in how large a simcha to make. I would not oppose their telling people that going into serious debt for a simcha because you feel pressured to make a large one is wrong. I would not oppose their telling people to "cut their suits according to their cloth"--make what you can afford and social pressure be damned. I would not oppose their telling people that a lot of what people assume "has" to be at a wedding doesn't, in fact, have to be there. I would oppose a carte blanche naming of some number as the limit for the number of guests at a simcha--the number of people is NOT always the make or break number, but what you are providing for those people can be.
Re the opulent lifestyle and how "permissible" that is during hard economic times, I'd say that we need a definition of opulent first. Is buying a standing rib roast unacceptable opulence? Is driving a new car unacceptable opulence? Is taking a vacation unacceptable opulence? Where do you draw the line? I don't ever remember hearing about the Rothschild family hiding its wealth by wearing hand me downs and torn shoes, or not making family simchas just because others did not have their money. Everyone knew they had the money and, in fact, counted on the family's benevolence in bailing out those with no money.
So here's the question, we agree this is Leshon Harah...so how to deal when someone starts to say such things?
I guess if its just the two of you, you can politely say that the chatter is inappropriate. But would that make the other person feel bad?
If there are other people around, a friend of mine always excuses herself and says she has to go to the bathroom...
I suppose if there are too many people around, you can also start in on what your favorite dish was "wasn't the Kugel simply divine?" or maybe how you admire how the host made such a lovely Seudah and G-d willing one day you will be able to do something like that too...
ProfK - I have no opposition if the rabbanim wanted to get up and say there is no requirement to look at what your neighbor's did when making a simcha. I would not oppose their saying that keeping up with the Shwartzes is not a halachic requirement and shouldn't be a social one either. I would not oppose their telling people that there are no requirements for who should or should not be invited to a simcha. I would not oppose their telling people that hurt feelings, based on some half-cocked social pressure, should not be a deciding factor in how large a simcha to make. I would not oppose their telling people that going into serious debt for a simcha because you feel pressured to make a large one is wrong. I would not oppose their telling people to "cut their suits according to their cloth"--make what you can afford and social pressure be damned. I would not oppose their telling people that a lot of what people assume "has" to be at a wedding doesn't, in fact, have to be there. I would oppose a carte blanche naming of some number as the limit for the number of guests at a simcha--the number of people is NOT always the make or break number, but what you are providing for those people can be.
I tend to agree, and I even take it a big step further in that I believe that Rabbanim should never get involved in anything beyond imparting the halacha to their congregants. I see far too many Rabbis trying to be everything, Rabbi, counselor, social worker, financial advisor, etc to their congregants. However, Rabbanim do this all the time (oppose keep-up-with-the-cohens, don't go into debt for a simcha, etc) and it doesn't seem to be working as people seem to be doing the wrong things (simcha debt, etc) more and more today. Do you think further steps need to be taken by Rabbanim, other community leaders, and the tzibur itself to fix this problem?
Re the opulent lifestyle and how "permissible" that is during hard economic times, I'd say that we need a definition of opulent first.
I would think that the definition would vary widely from community to community.
Is buying a standing rib roast unacceptable opulence? Is driving a new car unacceptable opulence?
In Great Neck, probably not. In Addis Ababa, probably yes.
Is taking a vacation unacceptable opulence? Where do you draw the line? I don't ever remember hearing about the Rothschild family hiding its wealth by wearing hand me downs and torn shoes, or not making family simchas just because others did not have their money. Everyone knew they had the money and, in fact, counted on the family's benevolence in bailing out those with no money.
I'm not sure how closely the Rothchild's clung to halacha. Though, from most reports, they certainly observed the halacha of tzedaka rather well.
But the main question that I am asking is - is there such a halacha regarding public opulence in the first place? If so, then perhaps some requirements can be further derived regarding the appropriate behavior in these circumstances. I simply don't know.
Mark
Have you actually read through the original posts on this subject??? The tone was not at all what you describe (?!?!). The hostess herself described what the seudah had cost her and asked what other people had spent. Many people had a similar budget, and many people spent far less. I was one of the frugal responders. My feeling was certainly not one of smugness (which I think of as conceited, self-congratulatory), but more of YES, it is possible to do a seudah (and many, many, many other Jewish things) for far less than we deem "normal." I'm excited when people responsibly use their resources and don't feel pressed into funding these kinds of things with credit cards. Do I begrudge a wealthy family a sumptuous seudah?? Of course not!!! (And I'd love an invitation!!) But more often I see people who truly don't have the cash and do it anyway. The more that can be done to help our fellow Jews stay within their means, the healthier our community will be. My two cents, late on a Saturday night. Shavua tov! :)
OOPS. Now I realize that you may have been referring to a different posting, after reading more closely! :) Your description mirrored one that has been flying around and I wanted to make sure it wasn't being misrepresented. I think I'd better get some sleep. :)
Alpidarkomama,
The comment passed on to me was not about a posting but was a person-to-person commentary. I can see the value in asking someone how much something cost if you want to do or have that thing. It's the talking behind someone's back that I object to and the loshon horah.
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