Bad4shidduchim, in her own inimitable style, had a recent post about the migration of out of towners to New York for the purposes of, as she concluded, finding a shidduch. The males and females arrive for college/yeshiva and tend to gather at Touro and YU/Stern. They stay in NY until a shidduch can be made. She erroneously had a conclusion that these people do so because New York is the center of the world and NY merchandise is the "best" to be gotten.
Let me expand upon my comment made on her site. Yes, it is true that a number of out of towners do come to NY, both for college and after college/yeshiva. Yes, NY has the largest Jewish population in the country. But that population density as regards out of towners is deceptive.
For one thing, New Yorkers of many stripes are hesitant about marrying into an oot family. They don't want the hassle of trying to investigate an out of town family for shidduch purposes. They don't like the idea of their children spending half the yom tovim traveling out of town. They surely don't like the idea of their children moving out of town permanently. For some parents admitting that their child made an oot shidduch is tantamount to admitting that nobody from "in town" would take their child, surely a horrible admission to have to make. Please keep in mind that for some people any place out of the five boroughs of NYC and the 5 Towns constitutes out of town. Some will make exceptions for Lakewood and Baltimore. Some will argue that NYC actually comprises the tri-state area. Really? Know many people who are chomping at the bit to move to Connecticut? Or even most areas of New Jersey? Or who are searching for shidduchim for their kids in these areas?
Let's look at this from the other side as well. A lot of out of towners are less than enamored with the NY lifestyle. They are hesitant about marrying into families whose major concerns seem to be plastic tablecloths and stacking/scraping the dishes. Some of the oot families are less than taken with the fiscal/fiduciary practices common in NYC. And some oot families don't define "religious richness" by the number of pizza parlors and sushi shops per square mile.
So if the out of towners residing in NY are not marrying the natives, then who are they marrying? Each other. New York represents a great big marketing convention. It has the convenience of having all the "exhibits" under one roof, so to speak. It saves a lot of money to only have to buy one airplane ticket to New York and yet to be able to date people from a lot of oot locations. Yes, a few of these couples may end up in "permanent" residence in NY, but only a few. The rest of the couples, who may get "stuck" in NY until schooling/training is finished, keep themselves sane by repeating the mantra "It can't last forever, it can't last forever" at least 7 times daily. And yes, they mostly find themselves moving out of NY when they are serious about buying homes and settling down. Note: I contacted former pupils who are from oot, married to oot people and living in NY right now. All of them have no intention of staying in NY once their schooling and/or their spouse's school/training is finished. Some will be heading back to their home cities; others are going to be moving to new oot cities.
But what about those mixed marriages, oot and NY? I believe you'll find that the oot gene is dominant in most cases. Sure, it may take a few years, even a few decades, but those "mixed marriages" will find new homes in the vast oot "wilderness." You can take those out of towners and try and plant them into NY soil but they general end up in pots rather than the garden, pots that are movable to where the light and air requirements are more to their liking. They can live in NY, but they don't necessarily thrive there.
The more "modern" communities and synagogues seem to have the highest representation of out of towners or of out/NY marriages. These communities also have the highest percentage of singles/couples/families making aliyah. Certainly one important way to go out of town. My community is an example. Many of those who have not yet made aliyah have already purchased homes in Israel towards their eventual relocation. But what of those who are not thinking Israel now? The boomers in our community already started retiring a while ago. Many purchased second homes in Florida and in other "sunbelt" cities. Others moved completely to these areas. Some are moving to other areas, to states where there is no state/city tax. Still others are moving to areas oot where they have children living. But look at those who have left NY, are preparing to leave NY or have said they will leave NY in the near future. Huge numbers of "displaced" out of towners in that group.
I am part of such a mixed marriage. My hubby a born and bred Boro Park boy; me a displaced Oregonian. Will we be remaining in NY pre and post retirement? No way! Plans have been afoot for many years for us to leave. We've already picked our Western community, and it's the thought that the time to move there is getting closer that keeps us sane when the shtuss level in NY gets too high, which is happening with greater and greater frequency. But it's not only the goings on of the frum community that are sending us out of town. As they grow older, people start to develop certain physical/medical conditions, arthritis being one of them (just you wait; it will happen to you, too). The NY climate is so not healthy for a whole range of conditions. I developed an actual allergy to the mold and mildew carried by humidity. But that's not the only reason either. Try states in the country where there is no state or city income tax. Try states with real estate prices far below those in NY. Try states where a dollar goes further.
I'm actually pretty happy that a whole lot of New Yorkers don't like oot and have no intentions, ever, of moving there. It leaves the oot landscape "unspoiled" for those of us with the refinement to appreciate just what a treasure trove oot really is.
18 comments:
Dating in NY is better then most any where else because of all the things to do. When single I also enjoyed all the places to go like museums and theaters. But married? OOT here and yes I married an OOT who I met in NY. Too much hassle to get a New Yorker to agree to even go on a date with someone considering going back out of town. Still like to visit the city but just visit, not live there.
What, they don't have Starbucks and Hotel Lobbies OOT?
Not the minhag to take a girl to a hotel lobby everywhere Dave. It almost gave my mom an attack when she first heard about the custom. I was in NY and had a date that day. I spoke to my mom after the date and she asked some general questions. She ended by asking where the boy took me. I told her "he took me to a hotel." Took a bit of explaining as to what I meant by that, and she really wasn't happy. She wanted to know what kind of people hung around hotel lobbies and lounges. I think one of the reasons she likes my husband is that he never once took me to a lobby or lounge.
Yes, I was just trying to highlight the irony that, with all the things to do in New York, the default in some circles has become "Starbucks or Hotel Lobby".
Not all of us from out of town who want to go back there. Now that I've lived in New York for so long I can see all the advantages it has and I can see some problems with where I grew up. My parents and siblings think I'm crazy to prefer here, but they haven't really lived here and don't know all the good points.
Every community has it's pros and cons. Sometimes people dont give another community the chance because of reputation etc.
I'm working on a project that will make it more transparent. It will let people see the beauty, resources and people in each community so they can form an informed opinion. Stay tuned.
She erroneously had a conclusion that these people do so because New York is the center of the world and NY merchandise is the "best" to be gotten.
Um, not at all what I concluded. I said women come to NY because there are more men here. Many of those men are also OOTs, studying in NYC for various reasons - one of which is that NY is the center of the world. But I never said that we create better people here. Just that all those people out there feel compelled to come here.
Hate to disagree with the author but I read the bad4 posting and what comes through, although maybe not explicitly in all the cases, is that NY is where you have to be for shidduchim. And yes that NY is the center of the world.
I'd also like to disagree with the "Mexican lives" statement she made. I lived on the upper west side in a 3-bedroom apt. in a doorman building. I visited permanent natives in Brooklyn whose apartments couldn't begin to compare to what my roommates and I shared. I've also seen those basement hellholes that some people rent in Brooklyn. No, I really don't understand why they do it. But I also don't understand how the landlords are even allowed to rent out what is not better then tenement housing, and charge a lot for it. Yet another difference between NY and out of town. You don't find those nasty basement holes being rented in out of town communities. No one needs to rent out a basement. Apartment rents are reasonable.
21 years ago my inlaws felt they had no choice but to send my sil there to NY to find a shidduch. On the way a blizzard delayed the plane in Chicago. a small group of frum people on the plane had a problem that they might not make it in to NY before Shabbos. They ended up spending Shabbos in Chicago. My sil was introduced to someone over Shabbos who she is married to for over 20 years. So I suppose that because she was heading for NY a shidduch came into being. You don't actually have to arrive in NY for the "magic" to happen. My shidduch? 2 Californians who didn't need NY to find each other. Fact is we've never been to NY.
You have gotten it sor to of wrong. The people from new york dont feel that if they marry an oot then that means no one in town wants them, no there are just so many people here that, that couldnt be done, and us in new york look at lakewood to be the place we might be "lucky" to fit into.
I've seen reference made before to the tablecloth issue and the stacking/scraping plates issue. Would you mind explaining what it's all about? Is it bad to use a plastic cover? Is it bad to stack the plates at the table? I've never heard of this nonsense in real life so I'm not sure I get it. And do people really refuse to date someone because their family doesn't use the proper tablecloth or stack plates incorrectly? Please tell me people haven't sunk to such a level of ridiculousness. No wonder there's a shidduch crisis!
-Dana
Looking forward to your response to Dana's question.
I came from OOT and while I did date NYers, most definitely preferred OOTers and married one. I made aliyah. Now I have no family in the city I grew up in and my husband's siblings are here too.
Dana,
What the frum community could use is a Snopes for Jewish urban legends. Unfortunately, the plastic tablecloth issue is not an urban legend. And apparently the stack/scrape is not a legend either. As I have been told over the years re the tablecloth question, it's not so much about the tablecloth itself but the level of "refinement" and "gracious" living that the plastic cloth represents. I was also once told that the plastic cloth can indicate how good a balabusta a girl's/boy's mother is, and how industrious or lazy she is. "Obviously" covering a cloth with plastic indicates someone "too lazy" to wash and iron a cloth after each use.
Re the scrape/stack issue, I'm going to make a guess as to the origin, because it's fairly recently that this has come up. When I was young restaurant eating was reserved for special occasions and there were lots of people who never ate out. Today, large numbers of people eat out fairly regularly. They are accustomed to being served and having the plates whisked away from the table by a waiter or waitress. They are paying for this service. I believe they have taken the idea of the plates being individually removed and are applying this idea to the home. If restaurants don't scrape/stack at the table then this must be the standard of "graciousness" that should apply in the home as well.
Lest you think that these are the only crazy questions that get asked, I could write a book the size of an encyclopedia about the other strange questions people have when making shidduchim. I've been asked if a girl's mother irons the family's undershirts and underwear, because her son was used to laundry done well. I've been asked if a mother irons the sheets and pillow cases. I've been asked if a father does his own snow shoveling or does he hire out that job to someone for whom it would be more appropriate. When it came to light that a young man had gotten some instruction on how to maintain his car himself, you know, oil changes etc., the girl's mother was worried that this represented cheapness on his part or perhaps a lack of money, and she wanted to see a W2 to make sure he would be making enough to maintain her daughter properly. And in the bizarre area, I've been asked if a boy snored or not. I've also been asked if a boy has any visible "marks" on his body. I've been asked which shaitel macher a mother uses and what brands of shaitels she buys. I've been asked which brand of hat a father or boy wears.
It is precisely because the level of these types of questions has increased to beyond ridiculous that I've opted out of active shidduch redding.
The way I remember it from when I was younger the tablecloth question was a Hungarian/non-Hungarian divide. You could tell who came from good Hungarian homes by whether they had plastic coverings or not.
I think you hit on the answer for why so many out of towners come here looking for shidduchim when you mentioned the practical angle. It's just simpler to have one location where you know that people who are looking will be rather than calling all over the country trying to find someone. One of my daughters dated boys from 9 different out of town cities without ever having to leave NY to do so. Can you imagine what kind of money would have been spent on both sides if these boys had had to come into NY specially for a date? And then do so more then one time in a year? It's certainly cheaper just to be here, find a spouse and then go back home.
ProfK - She erroneously had a conclusion that these people do so because New York is the center of the world and NY merchandise is the "best" to be gotten.
Yes, in fact, it is often the opposite. People who remain single for too long in NY get "ruined" in a fashion. The whole NY singles scene is very damaging to some people and they eventually become professional singles (always looking for something better, but never finding it). And that's sad. The epicenter of professional singles is perhaps the upper west side, but it can happen anywhere in the area.
My hubby a born and bred Boro Park boy; me a displaced Oregonian.
That's a lot like us. I was born in Washington Heights, grew up in Boro Park, moved to Staten Island, and eventually married a girl from Atlanta. But we never lived in NY (or the NY area), and probably never will. One way to describe much of the community in the NY area is that it is "interbred" - it's not a complimentary description, and it's not a literal description, but it is very fitting to describe a group of people that has let peer pressure rule their lives obliterating individualism to a great extent.
Mark
Gmail sent all my blogger comment subscriptions to spam and I just found them.
My mother z"l did not scrape and stack dishes and certainly not at the table. She said it scratched the china. But, she would not have considered that a factor in a shidduch.
And by the way, I don't use plastic covers nor do I iron my (usually colored) tablecloths. I don't iron much else either.
P.S. I'd appreciate your updating the URL for my blog below.
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