Sunday, February 19, 2012

Something Fishy

Our local Pathmark had a new product I hadn't seen before. The brand is Cape Gourmet Wild Salmon fillets. It's a one-pound package. Each package has four pieces in it, individually vacuum sealed. The bones and skin have been removed, so it's pure fish fillet counted for the weight. It's under the Chof K. The package was being sold for $5.99 for the one-pound package. The fresh fish counter had wild salmon at $11 a pound, pre-frozen and thawed, skin still on--obviously the frozen package represents a bargain.

I tried the fish and it was delicious. And it really is convenient to be able to take out only as many servings as you need. If you like salmon but don't like the price of the fresh wild salmon, you might want to look and see if your market carries the brand.

32 comments:

nmf #7 said...

It's sold in Sam's Club! We used to buy it in the Midwest all the time- and we loved it.

abba's rantings said...

is it frozen?
that's a great price. i usually buy costco frozen wild salmon fillets, which i think costs about $9/lb?
people should also ask their rav about buying fish without a hechsher. mine doesn't allow it, but others do under certain circumstances. it can be much cheaper and/or of better quality.

Sarah said...

I found this brand salmon at Shoprite a few weeks ago and it is delicious. Problem is that when I went back to get some more it wasn't there. Asked the store manager and he basically said that they get it when they get it--no set delivery date. Next time I see it I'll stock up.

tesyaa said...

Yes, it's a great bargain, about 2/3 the price of Costco. But I go to Costco anyway; to go to a Pathmark I'd have to make a special trip, with no guarantee it'd be in stock (I suppose I could call ahead). But for the amount of salmon we eat in a year, I'd save what, $30 per year maximum by trying to buy at Pathmark? There are a whole lot of other easier ways to save this amount of money. For me. For other people, it might definitely by worth the trip.

Rachel said...

Thanks for this great tip! I found the salmon at my local Pathmark and bought all the packages they had---9 of them. That's 7 regular weeks of salmon meals. We're fish eaters and this is for us a real savings. I wonder if they will be kosher for Pesach also? Kosher fish prices are obscene right before a chag and this frozen fish would help a lot.

a said...

RACHEL:

". I wonder if they will be kosher for Pesach also? Kosher fish prices are obscene right before a chag and this frozen fish would help a lot."

major kashrus orgs like ou and star-k, as well as many shul lists, specify there is no need for a KP hashgacha for plain raw fish

abba's rantings said...

RACHEL:

". I wonder if they will be kosher for Pesach also? Kosher fish prices are obscene right before a chag and this frozen fish would help a lot."

major kashrus orgs like ou and star-k, as well as many shul lists, specify there is no need for a KP hashgacha for plain raw fish

ProfK said...

Rachel and Abba,

Abba is both right and wrong. The major kashrut organizations don't require a separate KP for raw fish for Pesach. However, this is a new brand for me, and I don't know if they also make breaded fish products in addition to plain raw frozen fish. If they also produce those breaded products then I'd imagine they would need a KP. If they don't, then they would fall under the ruling for plain fresh fish.

abba's rantings said...

PROFK:

iirc, guides from the OU, star-k, YISI, etc. simply state that raw fish doesn't need a special KP certification. plain raw fish is plain raw fish. end of story. they don't say anything about it being dependent on whether or not the company also makes chometzkid fish products separately. i'm not sure why you're adding in a clause that simply isn't in any of these guides. (obviously one should check with a LOR.)

i'm also not sure what it means if a particular "brand" happens to make chomitzdik fish products. the "brand" (e.g., costco's kirkland brand) can be just a marketing company that subcontracts out all its processing and packaging to other companies. we don't know if 2 products from a particuar brand are really even made by the same company, and if so, if they are made at the same plant, etc. obviously the kashrith agencies have all this information, but we don't, and i don't understand why we should rush to assur something just because it's the same "brand"

not even purim yet, and we're already talking pesach :)

abba's rantings said...

i think we've had a similar conversation wrt meat and poultry, which likewise doesn't require special KP ceritication (althouh iirc YISI states it should be in original factory packaging

tesyaa said...

Abba, thanks for clarifying. I also never heard that one must investigate which other products are sold under the same brand names before following the OU's guidelines.

I suspect some people just don't feel comfortable on Pesach knowing there's a breaded fish with the same brand name. To each his or her own, but then don't complain about chumra creep.

ProfK said...

Sigh,

Let me explain further--I didn't assur the fish. What I said was that the fish MIGHT require a Pesachdik hechsher. This would be based on what the kashrut agency knows of the factory/site where the fish is processed/packaged and if the same company also produces breaded fish products in that same factory and/or uses the same equipment for processing/packaging. If they don't, end of problem. If they do the kashrut agency might or might not require that Pesach hechsher depending on the exact circumstances they have access to knowledge about.

Even if a product does not contain any milk products in it, the major kashrut agencies will mark all products made on equipment that produces both dairy and non-dairy products as dairy. My point was that they might do the same for breaded and non-breaded fish products if they are processed using the same equipment.

JS said...

Funny. We just had this brand of fish tonight. Was delicious and certainly cheaper than the costco salmon we usually get. We don't eat fish all that often, but we'll be on the lookout for this when our supermarket gets a fresh stock.

tesyaa said...

I think raw, frozen fish is processed in a completely different way than breaded cooked or ready-to-cook fish, using entirely different equipment. That's why the kashrus certifiers state that raw frozen fish doesn't need a separate Pesach hechsher. If it was a case-by-case situation, they'd never make that blanket statement. Of course, maybe things have changed since last Pesach.

Kaylie said...

I looked for the fish today and finally found it. Funny thing was it wasn't in the big frozen food section but in a freezer bin right there in the fresh fish section. So I looked to see how much they were selling wild salmon for. $11.99 a pound, but here is the really strange part. The fresh wild salmon has on its sign "previously frozen." So they defrost it and charge customers double what the still frozen salmon is?!

Thanks for the info. Making the fish tomorrow night. When my hubby saw the two packages I bought he asked if I'd suddenly won the lottery that I was buying wild salmon. I told him no, I read a blog.

Miami Al said...

Wild Salmon is MUCH better for you than farm raised salmon. It's rather unfortunate that salmon is so expensive here, because it's SUCH a healthy fish for various reasons.

I'm a little confused by, "people should also ask their rav about buying fish without a hechsher. mine doesn't allow it, but others do under certain circumstances."

Meaning, you can't go to a fish market and buy a whole fish? Meaning you can't have it filleted for you? I'm really confused about what your Rav would say that would require a hechsher on a fish.

Certain products, I suppose, but a fish?

tesyaa said...

Al, most rabbis allow you to buy a whole fish anywhere if the store owner washes the knife and board used for filleting first. A few rabbis might require the owner to have separate kosher boards and knives, and I guess this might require a mashgiach since he might mix up the kosher with the non-kosher, but it's a real stretch since everything is cold anyway.

Miami Al said...

Tesyaa,

Shrug, if you are worrying about this, just fillet your own fish, it's not that hard.

I suppose the Rabbi in question might want a mashiach to cover cleaning the fish, because while it's not difficult, it's pretty gross work and I wouldn't want to do it in a home kitchen...

Kind of silly, OU's guidelines on their website tell you what to do when you buy fish from a general fish market, it's not exactly a secret.

BTW: if you see the store cutting a piece of fish without hosing down the area and using a clean knife, you should turn around and leave. I don't care that the knife/board is "kosher," if it's not clean when being used on dead fish, it's a bacterial infection waiting to happen.

tesyaa said...

I typed filleting when I meant gutting. You can buy fish and have the fishmonger gut it for you as long as the board is clean. Like I said, some rabbis might want the owner to have separate kosher boards & knives. In theory you could bring your own board and knives to the store, but the knives might be specialized and expensive; I don't know anyone who actually does this.

Miami Al said...

Tesyaa,

If anyone has EVER watched a fishing boat unload, they realize how absolutely silly this discussion is.

I did know people here that bought a knife for them to do whatever. Local Rav here told me some years back to just wash the fish when I get home, everything is cold -- if the fish isn't cold when gutted and stored, you have FAR BIGGER problems than Kashrut.

I haven't gutted a fish in a long time, it's gross, no interest in doing that unless it's at the dock after a trip on a private fishing boat. If you've ever washed fish get gutted, it's all in a very wet, clean, cold environment.

The places I go to all hose down the board in public view of everyone before doing ANY sorts of cuts.

tesyaa said...

Al, clearly you haven't met the OCD people I've me who would worry about the traif molecules they'd be spreading in their kitchen should they take the fish home and wash it off themselves. (Just forget about that 1/60th thing, OK? Clearly that's for people who aren't really frum! <sarcasm off)

I agree that the whole idea of not buying fish at a regular fish store is silly, but it keeps the kosher fish stores in business.

JS said...

It's not such a big OCD stretch - we already pretty much treat kashrut in the same sense as we do kitchen sanitation. You worry about salmonella bacteria infecting your cutting boards and prep surfaces and you worry about the molecules of "meat flavor" that have somehow permeated your dishes and pots and pans. It's not too far a stretch from that to worrying about your dairy knife falling into the sink full of meat dishes or molecules of treif fish or whatever. Is it any different than the fact that a kosher product is no longer kosher because it's run on the same line (whatever that means) as a non-kosher product?

Kashrut is an OCD business and the more OCD you are the more reputable your hashgacha is.

tesyaa said...

JS, whether or not we can agree that kashrus didn't operate at the microscopic level in the past, I agree it's going there in the future...

Miami Al said...

Tesyaa,

When there are things I know nothing about, I happily refer to experts. When there are things I know things about, I trust my own judgment.

I have no idea how to mashgiach a butcher shop, I trust that the Rabbi does so, because I don't have an alternative.

Pretty sure that I've spent more time on a fishing boat than most Brooklyn Rabbis... :) Hardly an expert on fishing boats, but probably more than them. :)

My confusion was the "buy fish" without supervision. I could see (but disagree) with needing supervision on a fillet or "piece" of fish. OTOH, I couldn't see needing a Rabbi to certify that a yellow tail snapper is Kosher, you can just look at it.

There are no "particles" involved when you go into a fish store and see a fish there, or go down to one of the little stores near the inlets where the fishing boats come in (and if you can't separate snapper from shrimp, you got problems beyond OCD Kashrut). That was the part I found "odd." Knife/board, fine, whatever, difference of opinion, but a whole "fish" that's just crazy talk.

Anonymous said...

Those cheap fish prices aren't just on the brand you found. All the markets are pushing fish at steep price cuts. Thank your non-jewish neighbors for that because it's Lent. Wouldn't count on the prices staying so low once Lent is over. Now's the time to stock up in the freezer.

Ruth said...

I found this brand at my local market and picked up some of the salmon. Weird though. This brand also has other kosher frozen fish types and none of them are under the ChofK, only the salmon. Our Rav also says that fresh fish doesn't need a hechsher but that frozen fish might. But why would some kosher fish types get that hechsher and some not, when it's all the same company packing it?

abba's rantings said...

RUTH:

1) how do you know it's the same company packing it (it may just be a marketing brand), or packing it at the same facility?
2) and may come down to what the company wants to pay for (hashgacha isn't free)
3) you should verify with the relevant kashruth agency regarding the products without the hashgacha. it could be that they are under the hashgacha but for whatever reason it isn't printed on the packaging. for a while costco salmon lacked the OU, but i called they OU and they told me that regardless it was under the OU

Abba said...

PROFK:

"kashrut agencies will mark all products made on equipment that produces both dairy and non-dairy products as dairy."

if you call up the agency they will tell you if a product is really dairy or just dairy equipment. i do this occasionally.

Abba said...

AL:

"Pretty sure that I've spent more time on a fishing boat than most Brooklyn Rabbis"

i used to go salt water fishing out of brooklyn (jamaica bay). hygiene and cleanliness in general leaves much to be desired, whether in the galley, at the toilets or where the fish are prepared. i would not trust the mates unless i watched them clean the boards and knives with my own eyes.

"My confusion was the "buy fish" without supervision . . ."

i thought i was clear from the context here that i wasn't referring to a whole fish, which of course shouldn't require a hashgacha. but in any case, just to be clear, i was referring to pieces, gutted fish, fillets, etc.

my friend's rav said he could buy fillets of salmon (easily identifiable) with the skin on it (a siman) from trader joe's (a large reputable company). i asked my rav, he said no. nu, if once in 5 years i ask a shayla it won't kill me to follow the answer. even if it doesn't make 100% sense to me. mostly though i probably wouldn't buy unhechsered fish out of respect for my neighbors.

there is by the way a fish store in teaneck owned by a non-jew. there is no hashgacha but he only sells kosher fish. my friends shop there. they like him a lot. and of course he is much cheaper.

tesyaa said...

nu, if once in 5 years i ask a shayla it won't kill me to follow the answer.

LOL

Miami Al said...

Abba,

Right, my point was that there is no magical fishing boat. Everything is there, there are dead fish, it's the same thing. Water is everywhere. When fish are gutted at a cleaning station, tons of water. Water is what removes the guts while doing this.

Fishing boats are freaking cold all the time, because they fish early in the morning and come in. Water is used to clean.

Sorry that I didn't pick up your context clearly.

sima said...

Thanks for the tip -- I looked for it at shoprite, but it's 6.99 (still a great price) and I bought it.