A fair number of the comments on the postings about what a degree is worth have mentioned money. The general consensus seems to be that college costs too much; therefore, anything that can cut down on the costs, such as compressing undergrad studies into a shorter period of time, is beneficial. The same goes for graduate school, which generally charges even more than undergrad programs do.
SECTION A:
Yes, college costs today, both undergrad and graduate, are sometimes mind boggling. Costs for an undergraduate college education can run from $6K per year to almost $50K per year, not necessarily including dormitories and food and books and transportation. Pick an "average" amount and a student graduating after four years could conceivably owe $80-200K before he/she even looks at graduate school. Add in graduate school and you could be tacking on an additional $15K to $160K in costs, depending on the length of the grad program. Yes, it is scary to know that on the day you finish your formal education you could be in debt for $95K to $360K.
But the key here is the "could be" part. There are any number of ways to reduce how much you will need to pay in tuition, particularly on the undergrad level. Here's a news bulletin: do really well in your high school classes and really well on your SATS and you put yourself into the running for academic scholarships, both those given by a college itself and those that come from outside scholarship sources. Yes, you''ll have to research those outside sources--you know, do some work. The more prestigious the college, the higher the endowment that college has, the more scholarship money available. As I reported elsewhere, Harvard is going to a model of no tuition for its undergraduate students. Where Harvard leads the other Ivies are sure to follow. Set your academic sights high and you could end up paying less, not more.
Plenty of people will also qualify for tuition reduction and scholarship aid because their family income or their personal income falls low. Become an educated consumer and find out precisely what you are entitled to. Don't assume anything based on what someone else got or is telling you. Student loans, which may be part of a student aid package, come with a far lower percent than traditional loans. Their repayment schedule is also better than traditional loans.
Consider accelarating so that you complete your college courses in three years instead of four. It can be done, but keep in mind that you will need to spend more time concentrating on school work and will have less time for anything else you want to do. And also keep this in mind: presenting a transcript with a "C" average for course work done over three years is not going to get you "points" with future employers or graduate schools. Be honest with yourself: can you handle a more intense schooling experience?
Let's also remember that sometimes it takes money to make money. The first posting in this series showed that college graduates with no graduate school make $1.1 million dollars minimum more over a working lifetime than those with only a high school diploma. Subtract what college costs you and you are still coming out ahead over your working years, way ahead. Add in a graduate degree and you can double to quadruple your lifetime earnings.
If graduate school is also something you are going to do then you need to look at the relationship between your undergrad school and the grad school you want to go to. You may be spending X amount of dollars on undergrad education, but will that college you are going to be an entry ticket to the grad school you want to go to? Check with graduate schools and see just how many students from your undergrad school they have admitted. If you know going in that a graduate degree is going to be necessary, then do the calculations and see how you are going to have to apportion your monies between undergrad and grad school.
Look at the graduates of your prospective undergrad and grad schools and find out what the placement record is for people coming out of the program you might be considering. Which businesses, paying what types of salaries, take the graduates?
In short, an education costs, and can cost a whole lot. But what is needed is a careful evaluation of what you are getting/might be getting by attending one college over another college. When money is limited, how should it best be spent? Yes, debt for an education can be a frightening thing seen as a lump sum figure with no income yet in sight. But the old maxim still holds true: you get what you pay for. If spending less now can still get you what you are aiming for, then spend less. But if spending less now also means that you will make less later, then what have you actually saved? Of all the things that we throw our money at, you could do a lot worse than buying a good education.
SECTION B:
Now let me do a demographic cost breakdown, which may explain some of the "panic" in the frum community about the cost of college. Let's look at an average college student, one from the secular cohort and one from the frum cohort. [Information on the secular cohort is taken from US Census statistics.]
The typical high school student in the non-frum cohort graduates high school and goes straight on to college. Graduation from college takes place at about 21-22 years of age. During college that student also typically has some type of part-time employment. Let's say that that typical student graduates with $60K in school debt. According to the Census the average age of marriage for this cohort is from the mid-20s to the mid-30s. If a student graduates college and does not go on to graduate school--and according to the Census this is the norm, since only 1 out of 10 people hold graduate degrees--then that student enters the work world. In the time between graduation and marriage that student has a chance to pay down a huge chunk, if not all, of school loans.
At the point that our student gets married there are definitely long term financial goals that the married couple will have. A house is one of them. Saving for the college education of their children is another. Paying for private school for their elementary and high school children is NOT one of them, since the vast majority of children in the US attend public schools. Parents are encouraged to start saving for college expenses as soon as they can. Any number of financial vehicles for this saving having been established in the past few decades. Many parents do help out with college expenses, if not pay the whole amount. A financially astute person from this cohort does not have to spend decades buried under the debt of college.
Now let's look at our frum student. Please note that it is not pertinent here to discuss what changes should/could be made re yeshiva education; I'm speaking now of the situation that exists presently. The vast majority of those who call themselves frum send their children to religious schools for elementary and high school. Some begin this process with nursery/kindergarten, others with primer/first grade.
So our frum student graduates from high school. There is a community custom that has become prevalent even in the more modern corridors of Orthodoxy to provide a "gap" year or two for the girls and for the boys. For many this gap year(s) takes place in Israel. The start of college is thus delayed by a year or two, if not more, but it is not used for earning money towards college; instead, it takes money that parents might apply towards college and uses it otherwise. For many of the males, even when they start college, they are going only at night and are learning during the day. A few will be working during the day and attending school at night. The number of frum college students with part-time or full time employment is less as a percentage than the number of secular students who work while going to school. The age of graduation falls into the 22-25 age grouping; some students are even older.
Far from waiting to complete college and then get married after they are established, many frum students marry quite young and while still completing their education. Many frum couples are being supported by the wife, if she can already make parnoseh, or by the families or a combination of both. Many of these young married men return to learn for a few years after completing their college educations, again being supported by the wife or the families.
For some of these married couples, at the point where husband and wife are finished at least with their undergraduate education, they are already beginning to pay yeshiva tuition for their children; many students are already paying tuition for their children even while they themselves are still in school. There is no grace period for this group between finishing college and having heavy family expenses. They are paying back college loans at the same time that they are financing a private school education for their children. They are also attempting to pay home mortgages at the same time as they are paying back their loans and paying tuition for their children.
Thus, the cost of a college education can indeed seem formidable to a frum student. Reliance on parents for paying large parts of the college tuition are not a given; these same parents have also been paying yeshiva tuition for years, and thus their ability to save for college has been somewhat diminished.
Yes, college can be an expensive "purchase," but the financial "pain" is worse when repayment of educational loans coincides with other weighty financial obligations.
Monday, January 5, 2009
Sunday, January 4, 2009
Something We can do for our Chayalim
As the war in Israel stops being counted in days and enters into being counted in weeks, there is a frustration in somehow not being able to say or do something that will show our brothers and sisters in Israel that we are worried for them and with them, that they are in our thoughts. Many other blogs have listed sites where money may be donated to support the troops and the people under siege in Israel. The following was sent to me by a student and also represents something that we can undertake on behalf of the chayalim who are putting their lives on the line minute by minute.
Dear friends,
Rabbi Kook asked me to send you this letter (enclosed) and try to forward it to as many people as you can.
May we hear Besurot Tovot
Yanki Schneck
Assistant to Chief Rabbi of Rehovot(972)504114418
אחינו בית ישראל באיזורים רבים של ארץ הקודש מצוים בצרה ובשביה
ולעת כזאת חובתנו לחוש את אחדות כלל ישראל בלב ובנפש להרבות בתפילה ובכל הענינים, כי עת צרה היא ליעקב וכו' ובעהי"ת ממנה יושע.
ובאנו לעורר, ולבקש, ולהוסיף ענין של זיכוי הרבים ביותר.
תוה"ק מעידה כי במלחמת מדין נצטוו להחלץ "אלף למטה" "אלף למטה".ואיתא במד"ר ובילקוט שמעוני ד"וימסרו" היינו עוד אלף למטה, פירוש שהיו נמסרין זוגות זוגות, כדי שיהיו מתפללים איש על רעהו.
ואכן במלחמת מדין נאמר "ולא נפקד ממנו איש". ובודאי העובדה שניצלו כולם היתה בגלל תפילת כלל ישראל
והבאנו דבר זה לפני מרן הגאון רבי חיים קניבסקי שליט"א, שמח בדבר, והוסיף ואמר כי גם כך נהג דוד המלך ע"ה שלכל אחד שיצא להילחם, הכינו יהודי נוסף, שתפקידו היה, להתפלל עבור היוצא, ויש א"כ הסכמת דוד המלך ע"ה לתפילות אלו.
לזאת, אנו פונים בזה לכל חייל החפץ שיתפללו בעדו בעהי"ת להתקשר לטלפון 02 581 1911 ולמסור את שמו ושם אמו ואין צורך בשמות המשפחה.( אי מייל maortlmo@gmail.com או פקס 08-9450027) ונעביר בעהי"ת את שמו למתפלל שיכון בתוספות תורתו ותפילתו לזכותו ולשמרו.
וכן קוראים אנו לכל א' המצוי ח"ו בגלל המלחמה במצוקה או בחרדה, במקלט ובכל אתר לפנות להנ"ל ובעהי"ת נעביר גם שמו למי שקיבל על עצמו להוסיף בתפילתו ובתלמוד תורה עבור המבקש.
ובעזהשי"ת נזכה מן השמים גם אנו לנאמר "ולא נפקד ממנו איש".
ובזה אנו קוראים גם לכל מי שרוצה לקיים דברי חכמים ולהוסיף בתורה ותפילה, להצטרף ולהיכנס לפיתקא של תפילות , להתקשר למספ' הנ"ל ולקבל שם של חייל או אחר לכוון את תוספות תורתו ותפלתו לזכות חבירו .
גם נשים צדקניות יכולות לקבל ע"ע להתפלל עבור חברה השרויה במצוקה עקב המלחמה.
ה' בברכת כהנים באהבה המצפה לישועת
כ"ק אדמו"ר מבוסטון שליט"א הרב הראשי של רחובות
An open letter to all Achenu Bene Yisroel
After learning about the heart rendering appeal of the Gedolay Torah to intensify our Tefilos and Torah learning during this very trying time for Klal Yisroel, we have undertaken to join and aid them in their prayers.
The Medrash Rabah and the Yalkut relate that during the war against Midyon, for every one that went out to battle there was a designated person whose task it was to pray and learn for him.
The Great Gaon and Sage Rebbe Chaim Kanievsky shlitah when asked about this tradition pointed out that Dovid Hemelech, as well continued and instituted the practice, that for every individual who was in combat, there was another person selected for the specific task of praying and learning for him.
Therefore in order to continue and accomplish this Minhag, we ask soldiers and/or their relatives who would want a "partner" in Torah and Tefillah to email maortlmo@gmail.com or fax 011 9728 9450027 and give their Hebrew name and mothers Hebrew name without any other particulars such as family name or other identifying factors, so that we may disseminate them among those who heed the call to add Torah and Tefiloh for the sake of those who find themselves in jeopardy ח"ו. Anyone who finds himself or herself ח"ו in danger or in shelters because of the war may also feel free to call or email to the above.
To bond with us and receive a name of your "partner" please email or fax the above.
May Klal Yisroel in the merit of joining together, speedily see a successful end to this trial and campaign as quoted in the Parsha "without loss of life".
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear friends,
Rabbi Kook asked me to send you this letter (enclosed) and try to forward it to as many people as you can.
May we hear Besurot Tovot
Yanki Schneck
Assistant to Chief Rabbi of Rehovot(972)504114418
אחינו בית ישראל באיזורים רבים של ארץ הקודש מצוים בצרה ובשביה
ולעת כזאת חובתנו לחוש את אחדות כלל ישראל בלב ובנפש להרבות בתפילה ובכל הענינים, כי עת צרה היא ליעקב וכו' ובעהי"ת ממנה יושע.
ובאנו לעורר, ולבקש, ולהוסיף ענין של זיכוי הרבים ביותר.
תוה"ק מעידה כי במלחמת מדין נצטוו להחלץ "אלף למטה" "אלף למטה".ואיתא במד"ר ובילקוט שמעוני ד"וימסרו" היינו עוד אלף למטה, פירוש שהיו נמסרין זוגות זוגות, כדי שיהיו מתפללים איש על רעהו.
ואכן במלחמת מדין נאמר "ולא נפקד ממנו איש". ובודאי העובדה שניצלו כולם היתה בגלל תפילת כלל ישראל
והבאנו דבר זה לפני מרן הגאון רבי חיים קניבסקי שליט"א, שמח בדבר, והוסיף ואמר כי גם כך נהג דוד המלך ע"ה שלכל אחד שיצא להילחם, הכינו יהודי נוסף, שתפקידו היה, להתפלל עבור היוצא, ויש א"כ הסכמת דוד המלך ע"ה לתפילות אלו.
לזאת, אנו פונים בזה לכל חייל החפץ שיתפללו בעדו בעהי"ת להתקשר לטלפון 02 581 1911 ולמסור את שמו ושם אמו ואין צורך בשמות המשפחה.( אי מייל maortlmo@gmail.com או פקס 08-9450027) ונעביר בעהי"ת את שמו למתפלל שיכון בתוספות תורתו ותפילתו לזכותו ולשמרו.
וכן קוראים אנו לכל א' המצוי ח"ו בגלל המלחמה במצוקה או בחרדה, במקלט ובכל אתר לפנות להנ"ל ובעהי"ת נעביר גם שמו למי שקיבל על עצמו להוסיף בתפילתו ובתלמוד תורה עבור המבקש.
ובעזהשי"ת נזכה מן השמים גם אנו לנאמר "ולא נפקד ממנו איש".
ובזה אנו קוראים גם לכל מי שרוצה לקיים דברי חכמים ולהוסיף בתורה ותפילה, להצטרף ולהיכנס לפיתקא של תפילות , להתקשר למספ' הנ"ל ולקבל שם של חייל או אחר לכוון את תוספות תורתו ותפלתו לזכות חבירו .
גם נשים צדקניות יכולות לקבל ע"ע להתפלל עבור חברה השרויה במצוקה עקב המלחמה.
ה' בברכת כהנים באהבה המצפה לישועת
כ"ק אדמו"ר מבוסטון שליט"א הרב הראשי של רחובות
An open letter to all Achenu Bene Yisroel
After learning about the heart rendering appeal of the Gedolay Torah to intensify our Tefilos and Torah learning during this very trying time for Klal Yisroel, we have undertaken to join and aid them in their prayers.
The Medrash Rabah and the Yalkut relate that during the war against Midyon, for every one that went out to battle there was a designated person whose task it was to pray and learn for him.
The Great Gaon and Sage Rebbe Chaim Kanievsky shlitah when asked about this tradition pointed out that Dovid Hemelech, as well continued and instituted the practice, that for every individual who was in combat, there was another person selected for the specific task of praying and learning for him.
Therefore in order to continue and accomplish this Minhag, we ask soldiers and/or their relatives who would want a "partner" in Torah and Tefillah to email maortlmo@gmail.com or fax 011 9728 9450027 and give their Hebrew name and mothers Hebrew name without any other particulars such as family name or other identifying factors, so that we may disseminate them among those who heed the call to add Torah and Tefiloh for the sake of those who find themselves in jeopardy ח"ו. Anyone who finds himself or herself ח"ו in danger or in shelters because of the war may also feel free to call or email to the above.
To bond with us and receive a name of your "partner" please email or fax the above.
May Klal Yisroel in the merit of joining together, speedily see a successful end to this trial and campaign as quoted in the Parsha "without loss of life".
-------------------------------------------------------------------
How to Drive a Watch
My husband pointed out the following to me from the Stauer Catalog, the first 2009 edition. It was really nice to start the day with a shared laugh.
Page 49.
" A free car with every watch?...keep reading
Many Swiss watches cost more than my new car. So we at Stauer decided to replicate the movement of a magnificent $26,000 Swiss automatic watch but sell it to you for only $149.95. So you end up with $25,850.05 in change.
How did we build such a fine timepiece and save you enough to buy a brand new sedan or SUV in the process? We spent over $31 million but took our factory across the border and out of Switzerland. By using Swiss built machinery, Swiss trained engineers and the highest quality parts, we were able to build this limited edition Stauer Monaco automatic timepiece for 93% less than a comparable luxury model.
Thanks to Stauer, you can wear the ultimate luxury watch with the added benefit of keeping your money in your wallet, not on your wrist."
Page 49.
" A free car with every watch?...keep reading
Many Swiss watches cost more than my new car. So we at Stauer decided to replicate the movement of a magnificent $26,000 Swiss automatic watch but sell it to you for only $149.95. So you end up with $25,850.05 in change.
How did we build such a fine timepiece and save you enough to buy a brand new sedan or SUV in the process? We spent over $31 million but took our factory across the border and out of Switzerland. By using Swiss built machinery, Swiss trained engineers and the highest quality parts, we were able to build this limited edition Stauer Monaco automatic timepiece for 93% less than a comparable luxury model.
Thanks to Stauer, you can wear the ultimate luxury watch with the added benefit of keeping your money in your wallet, not on your wrist."
Haveil Havalim #199
Haveil Havalim #199 is up and can be accessed at
http://imabima.blogspot.com/2009/01/haveil-havalim-199.html
Lots there to get your teeth into.
http://imabima.blogspot.com/2009/01/haveil-havalim-199.html
Lots there to get your teeth into.
Say What????
The US government has been doing a fairly fine job of making manufacturers put vital information for consumers on the packages of food that they buy. However, there is still a long way to go before manufacturers won't be able to find a "sort-of" way around some of the regulations.
One of the kosher grocery stores had a truly great price on frozen pizza . I went to buy two boxes for the freezer for "emergency" purposes now that the weather is nasty and I'm busy with my mom. Simple, right? Wrong.
This pizza--8 slices to the box, regulation pizza-store size--comes in four varieties now. Regular white flour, white flour 55% reduced fat, regular whole wheat and whole wheat 55% reduced fat. Logic would seem to tell me to go for the reduced fat pizza.
The regular pizza is 420 calories for one slice, with 140 of those calories from fat, for 15 grams of fat per slice. It also provides 15% of daily Vitamin A, 8% of vitamin C, 50% of calcium and 20% of iron.
Now here is where things get sticky. The 55% reduced fat pizza contains only 5 grams of fat per slice--a good thing. But that is a reduction of 66% fat, not 55%. At 55% reduction there would be only 63 fat calories per slice. 63 subtracted from the 140 fat calories gives you 77. Subtract 77 calories from the 420 and you get 343 calories per slice. But the box states 320 calories per slice. I wasn't a math major, but something does not add up here.
In addition, the Vitamin A, vitamin C and iron are cut by 50% and the calcium by 60% on the lower fat product.
The manufacturer is cutting out a lot of something, but it's not that the pizza is equal to the regular pizza in every other way. If the manufacturer had switched to the low fat cheese available then fat calories would be reduced, but I have yet to see kosher low fat cheese reduced by 66%, which is what the fat grams above tell us. And given the calories stated on the lower fat cheese, and the amount of the nutrients in it, the manufacturer is NOT using lower fat cheese. The conclusion I came to is that the manufacturer is using less cheese, born out by a statement from someone in the store who has purchased this product. But they are also using less of something else in order to reduce fat and calories to the level they state on the box. Now according to the ingredients there is no fat used other than that which is in the cheese. But that can't be possible if they reduced the fat grams by 2/3.
So what are you really getting if you buy this product? Are you getting less pizza product? Or is it possible that the label does not correctly state the nutrition facts. If nutritional labeling was supposed to make it easier for consumers, this is one product that it did not make easier to understand. Yet another example of let the buyer be ware.
And no, it's not only the kosher producers whose labels don't add up, literally and figuratively.
One of the kosher grocery stores had a truly great price on frozen pizza . I went to buy two boxes for the freezer for "emergency" purposes now that the weather is nasty and I'm busy with my mom. Simple, right? Wrong.
This pizza--8 slices to the box, regulation pizza-store size--comes in four varieties now. Regular white flour, white flour 55% reduced fat, regular whole wheat and whole wheat 55% reduced fat. Logic would seem to tell me to go for the reduced fat pizza.
The regular pizza is 420 calories for one slice, with 140 of those calories from fat, for 15 grams of fat per slice. It also provides 15% of daily Vitamin A, 8% of vitamin C, 50% of calcium and 20% of iron.
Now here is where things get sticky. The 55% reduced fat pizza contains only 5 grams of fat per slice--a good thing. But that is a reduction of 66% fat, not 55%. At 55% reduction there would be only 63 fat calories per slice. 63 subtracted from the 140 fat calories gives you 77. Subtract 77 calories from the 420 and you get 343 calories per slice. But the box states 320 calories per slice. I wasn't a math major, but something does not add up here.
In addition, the Vitamin A, vitamin C and iron are cut by 50% and the calcium by 60% on the lower fat product.
The manufacturer is cutting out a lot of something, but it's not that the pizza is equal to the regular pizza in every other way. If the manufacturer had switched to the low fat cheese available then fat calories would be reduced, but I have yet to see kosher low fat cheese reduced by 66%, which is what the fat grams above tell us. And given the calories stated on the lower fat cheese, and the amount of the nutrients in it, the manufacturer is NOT using lower fat cheese. The conclusion I came to is that the manufacturer is using less cheese, born out by a statement from someone in the store who has purchased this product. But they are also using less of something else in order to reduce fat and calories to the level they state on the box. Now according to the ingredients there is no fat used other than that which is in the cheese. But that can't be possible if they reduced the fat grams by 2/3.
So what are you really getting if you buy this product? Are you getting less pizza product? Or is it possible that the label does not correctly state the nutrition facts. If nutritional labeling was supposed to make it easier for consumers, this is one product that it did not make easier to understand. Yet another example of let the buyer be ware.
And no, it's not only the kosher producers whose labels don't add up, literally and figuratively.
Saturday, January 3, 2009
What's Upcoming
The postings on what a degree is worth have brought some interesting and thought provoking responses from those who commented. They have also brought me a few interesting emails. Some of the comments have suggested the topics for some future postings, which will be on the subject of education--what it is, what it should be--and a liberal arts education--who needs it and why. The state of education (whatever that is) today is a topic that many are discussing. There are lots of pros and cons on all sides of this debate (yes, there are way more than two sides to this issue). So thank you to the readers who commented and fired up my imagination.
However, I am just a tad disgruntled at the moment [Thought: we know disgruntled people. Have you ever met a person who was gruntled?] A reader who sent me an email was making some perfectly valid points about a college education and then came this: "I mean, look at your own major. English and Education were the majors for those who couldn't make it in the harder majors. What can you do with an English degree if you don't teach English? High schools and colleges force students to take English courses I guess to give employment to the people who graduate with English degrees. It's not like they contribute anything really worthwhile to society like doctors and engineers do. Sorry if this upsets you but it's true as I see it."
[Smoothing ruffled feathers] The "worth" of certain majors is something I'll take up in a future posting. Ditto on what you can do with an English major. But perhaps now is the time to state that I may be teaching English but my undergraduate major was NOT in English, nor have I ever taken a formal course in Education other than two courses in Education for the Gifted and Tenets of Teaching Argumentation. English was that sub-major that I was missing one course in to qualify as a major. My major was in Speech--Rhetoric: Argumentation, Persuasion and Debate. One of the requirements for that major was a working knowledge of Latin and a working/reading knowledge of classical Greek. [Note: when I was in public elementary school we were given two years of Latin study as well as study of Greek roots. Two years before I entered high school was the first time that Latin as a requirement for high school graduation was made optional.] It certainly helped when so many of the required courses had Aristotelian and Platonic underpinnings. So much for a "Mickey Mouse" major. I had sub-majors in English, Linguistics and Comparative Literature. Yes, for graduate school I was "forced" to settle on one area and I chose English, but I also took courses outside of the required areas.
I'll admit it freely--I'm an "education" junkie. Put me near a classroom and a course and I start to salivate. Talk to me about writing papers and doing research and my adrenalin starts flowing. Know why I'm looking forward to retirement? Because I plan on spending a lot of unfettered time taking courses again. So is my husband. Learning for its own sake is a tenet I live by. Yup, I love school and schooling. I take a very pro-schooling stance. It is not that I am pro-school because I am teaching; I teach because I am pro-school.
Note to Self: Do not read emails motzoai Shabbos without a strong cup of coffee in hand and a sense of humor intact.
However, I am just a tad disgruntled at the moment [Thought: we know disgruntled people. Have you ever met a person who was gruntled?] A reader who sent me an email was making some perfectly valid points about a college education and then came this: "I mean, look at your own major. English and Education were the majors for those who couldn't make it in the harder majors. What can you do with an English degree if you don't teach English? High schools and colleges force students to take English courses I guess to give employment to the people who graduate with English degrees. It's not like they contribute anything really worthwhile to society like doctors and engineers do. Sorry if this upsets you but it's true as I see it."
[Smoothing ruffled feathers] The "worth" of certain majors is something I'll take up in a future posting. Ditto on what you can do with an English major. But perhaps now is the time to state that I may be teaching English but my undergraduate major was NOT in English, nor have I ever taken a formal course in Education other than two courses in Education for the Gifted and Tenets of Teaching Argumentation. English was that sub-major that I was missing one course in to qualify as a major. My major was in Speech--Rhetoric: Argumentation, Persuasion and Debate. One of the requirements for that major was a working knowledge of Latin and a working/reading knowledge of classical Greek. [Note: when I was in public elementary school we were given two years of Latin study as well as study of Greek roots. Two years before I entered high school was the first time that Latin as a requirement for high school graduation was made optional.] It certainly helped when so many of the required courses had Aristotelian and Platonic underpinnings. So much for a "Mickey Mouse" major. I had sub-majors in English, Linguistics and Comparative Literature. Yes, for graduate school I was "forced" to settle on one area and I chose English, but I also took courses outside of the required areas.
I'll admit it freely--I'm an "education" junkie. Put me near a classroom and a course and I start to salivate. Talk to me about writing papers and doing research and my adrenalin starts flowing. Know why I'm looking forward to retirement? Because I plan on spending a lot of unfettered time taking courses again. So is my husband. Learning for its own sake is a tenet I live by. Yup, I love school and schooling. I take a very pro-schooling stance. It is not that I am pro-school because I am teaching; I teach because I am pro-school.
Note to Self: Do not read emails motzoai Shabbos without a strong cup of coffee in hand and a sense of humor intact.
Thursday, January 1, 2009
What is a Degree Worth--part #3
The trend for decelerating the amount of time needed to earn an undergraduate degree is not one that applies only to the "alternative" college programs and the diploma mills. It has been slowly seeping into the regular college programs as well.
My undergraduate degree is from Queens College CUNY. The number of credits that was required to earn either a BA or a BS was 128, 8 more than is now the case. That 128 was the norm at all colleges. That represented 8 semesters at 16 credits per semester. Yes, it was possible to reduce the time needed to complete the degree by taking more credits per semester and/or by taking courses in summer school. However, taking more than 18 credits per semester required special permission from the school and was not a sure thing unless the school was convinced that you could handle the heavy load.
But it is not only the number of credits that is different now from then. We began school the day after Labor Day. We had classes up until Christmas Eve, were off until New Years and came back the day after New Years to finish the term and then take final exams. At max our winter break was two weeks and then the spring term began. That spring term would not end until the middle of June. Our school terms were longer then than now.
But there were other differences as well. First, at a minimum a 3-credit course required three hours a week of class time; a 4-credit course required four hours a week. Today's minimum requirement for a 3-credit course is 35 hours per term of instruction, far less then when I was an undergraduate. Next, there were 1-credit and 2-credit courses that were given back then. Physical education courses carried only one credit but required 2-3 hours per week for the course. Some labs were only 1-credit courses, some 2 on the advanced level. Again, those 1 and 2 credit labs carried 2-4 hours per week of lab time.
And then there were the basic required courses. All students had to take four courses in English, two in history, four in Physical education, one in health education, two in sociology/anthropology, two in Speech, three in the study of a foreign language, two in science and two in math. You were also required to take one semester of Art Appreciation and one semester of Music Appreciation. Those were just the general requirements. Every major carried its own list of required subjects in the major area as well as requirements from other areas. [Note: some colleges had far more by way of required subjects than CUNY did. For instance, YU/Stern required two Judaic Studies courses minimum each term at Stern and more at YU. These Judaic studies courses did not reduce the number of credits required for a degree; they were in addition to those credits.]
Back then it was not only possible but also likely that many people would graduate with more than 128 credits towards their undergraduate degree. Sometimes--GASP!--students took courses that were not school requirements nor major requirements just because they were interested in the subject matter. There were also students who either double majored or who took one or more sub-majors. (Sub-majors, otherwise known as minors, were four or more courses above the required/introductory course level in one subject area.) I graduated with 163 credits for my BA degree, including a major and three sub-majors, one of which was only one course short of being a full major. I wasn't all that unusual. [Note: I actually had more credits but then, unlike now, the Judaic studies courses from Stern, where I transferred from after my first year, were not transferable as college credit.]
So, in the "good old days" we went to school for longer periods of time, our courses took longer to complete, we had more school requirements and we took more courses outside of our majors. Yes, we really got educated when we were in college. And before someone brings this up with a smirk, many of us also worked part time while in school. And also before someone else brings it up, there were boys back then who were also learning in yeshiva during the day, although nowhere near as many as a percentage of population as there are now. But here is the difference. Those yeshiva boys went to school FOUR nights a week. And they weren't getting yeshiva credits from CUNY (or from anywhere else either). Yes, there were a few people who entered college with a few AP course credits. No, "CLEPing" was not in existence. And yes, it must be mentioned as well: even CUNY had tough entrance requirements back then. You needed to present a "decent" high school average and strong SAT scores. The caliber of students in school was higher then than now.
I offer this information so my readers can know what perspective I am coming from when I talk about the worth of a college education. And to my reader who commented on a prior posting that the "good old days" were not so good, I beg to differ. In my viewpoint, those "good old days" of undergraduate education were better than what we have today.
Note: to really make your day let me point out that the CUNY schools were tuition free back before open enrollment took affect and made charging a necessity. When I graduated college the registration fee per term had gone up to $25.00 per term, and people were in shock. Our only other charge for school was paying for textbooks and our transportation. Now that really was the good old days, and it was waaaaay better then the cost of college today.
My undergraduate degree is from Queens College CUNY. The number of credits that was required to earn either a BA or a BS was 128, 8 more than is now the case. That 128 was the norm at all colleges. That represented 8 semesters at 16 credits per semester. Yes, it was possible to reduce the time needed to complete the degree by taking more credits per semester and/or by taking courses in summer school. However, taking more than 18 credits per semester required special permission from the school and was not a sure thing unless the school was convinced that you could handle the heavy load.
But it is not only the number of credits that is different now from then. We began school the day after Labor Day. We had classes up until Christmas Eve, were off until New Years and came back the day after New Years to finish the term and then take final exams. At max our winter break was two weeks and then the spring term began. That spring term would not end until the middle of June. Our school terms were longer then than now.
But there were other differences as well. First, at a minimum a 3-credit course required three hours a week of class time; a 4-credit course required four hours a week. Today's minimum requirement for a 3-credit course is 35 hours per term of instruction, far less then when I was an undergraduate. Next, there were 1-credit and 2-credit courses that were given back then. Physical education courses carried only one credit but required 2-3 hours per week for the course. Some labs were only 1-credit courses, some 2 on the advanced level. Again, those 1 and 2 credit labs carried 2-4 hours per week of lab time.
And then there were the basic required courses. All students had to take four courses in English, two in history, four in Physical education, one in health education, two in sociology/anthropology, two in Speech, three in the study of a foreign language, two in science and two in math. You were also required to take one semester of Art Appreciation and one semester of Music Appreciation. Those were just the general requirements. Every major carried its own list of required subjects in the major area as well as requirements from other areas. [Note: some colleges had far more by way of required subjects than CUNY did. For instance, YU/Stern required two Judaic Studies courses minimum each term at Stern and more at YU. These Judaic studies courses did not reduce the number of credits required for a degree; they were in addition to those credits.]
Back then it was not only possible but also likely that many people would graduate with more than 128 credits towards their undergraduate degree. Sometimes--GASP!--students took courses that were not school requirements nor major requirements just because they were interested in the subject matter. There were also students who either double majored or who took one or more sub-majors. (Sub-majors, otherwise known as minors, were four or more courses above the required/introductory course level in one subject area.) I graduated with 163 credits for my BA degree, including a major and three sub-majors, one of which was only one course short of being a full major. I wasn't all that unusual. [Note: I actually had more credits but then, unlike now, the Judaic studies courses from Stern, where I transferred from after my first year, were not transferable as college credit.]
So, in the "good old days" we went to school for longer periods of time, our courses took longer to complete, we had more school requirements and we took more courses outside of our majors. Yes, we really got educated when we were in college. And before someone brings this up with a smirk, many of us also worked part time while in school. And also before someone else brings it up, there were boys back then who were also learning in yeshiva during the day, although nowhere near as many as a percentage of population as there are now. But here is the difference. Those yeshiva boys went to school FOUR nights a week. And they weren't getting yeshiva credits from CUNY (or from anywhere else either). Yes, there were a few people who entered college with a few AP course credits. No, "CLEPing" was not in existence. And yes, it must be mentioned as well: even CUNY had tough entrance requirements back then. You needed to present a "decent" high school average and strong SAT scores. The caliber of students in school was higher then than now.
I offer this information so my readers can know what perspective I am coming from when I talk about the worth of a college education. And to my reader who commented on a prior posting that the "good old days" were not so good, I beg to differ. In my viewpoint, those "good old days" of undergraduate education were better than what we have today.
Note: to really make your day let me point out that the CUNY schools were tuition free back before open enrollment took affect and made charging a necessity. When I graduated college the registration fee per term had gone up to $25.00 per term, and people were in shock. Our only other charge for school was paying for textbooks and our transportation. Now that really was the good old days, and it was waaaaay better then the cost of college today.
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