A Straight Answer? Sigh.

Over the years I've had occasion to need to ask a kashrut question or two. What I've seen as a straightforward question never seems to be viewed that way by those who I may be asking the question of. What follows is a depiction of the types of problems I--and countless others--run into when we need kashrus information. All of the names and places and situations are strictly fictional and/or used without reference to actual situations/places and should not be construed in any way, shape or form as being a comment on a real place, person or product. I'm not looking for trouble.

I'm in the market and browsing the shelves. A new product for the market is being advertised on a really great special. I pick up the box and read. According to the nutrition label this product is a miracle in nutrition. It has everything a person needs in just the right form, the portions are satisfying, it comes in 16 great flavors, the calorie count is 33 calories per serving and it's on sale for 3 for $1.00. Do I grab all the boxes I can? Nope. First I start looking all over the box for kosher certification. On the bottom of a side panel I finally see a symbol. It sort of looks like it could be a kosher certification symbol but it's not one I've ever seen before. It's a small box with UMKSC in the box and three small mezuzot on the top of the box with an "M" in each mezuzah. Next to the box it says CKP. I copy down the information and head for home.

Conventionally, what answer do you get if you have a kashrus question that you ask a friend or acquaintance? "Consult your/a local orthodox rabbi." In addition, the answer "consult a competent rabbinic authority" has been popular for a while. (Just a note here: why add in the competent part? As opposed to consulting an incompetent rabbinic authority?! Never mind, I think I just answered my question.) Before I went to consult a rabbi I first got online to the listings of kosher supervision symbols that can be found all over the Internet. On the second list I found the symbol that was on the box. It's the symbol of the United M Kosher Supervision Consortium. Huh? Further reading told me that the M refers to the states of Michigan, Minnesota and Missouri. It also gave a website for the Consortium and a contact phone number. I headed to the website.

The website gave me the name of the products that the Consortium supervises. The product I saw in the market is one of them. It listed the names of the rabbis from each of the M states who are the supervisors in their respective states. I recognized none of the names.

I put in a call to the rabbi of the shul we attend. He was out and would have to get back to me. That's okay, since there are plenty of orthodox rabbis locally. After all, either a product is kosher or it's not, so any local rabbi should do. I put in a call to one of them whom I know. I asked about the product and the certifying agency. He told me that he has never heard of the product nor of the agency. I mentioned the names of the rabbinic supervisors and he perked right up. "Of course I know Rabbi_____. We were in yeshiva together and he is a member of the same national rabbinic organization that I am. A fine, fine man. If he says you can trust this product, you can trust it."

Something is niggling at me so I call yet another local orthodox rabbi, also one whom I know. I give him the info I've got. His answer? He would be hesitant to say yes or no. He doesn't know the rabbis or the product. And besides, the three M states are not exactly known for their strong kashrus. They're very OOT and off the kashrus radar.

The call to a fourth local orthodox Rabbi gave me yet a different perspective. This rabbi had heard of the 3M Consortium and he was not recommending any products they supervise. So I asked: "So the products aren't kosher?" The rabbi answered: "Not exactly. I'm not saying they are treif. It's the supervision that is the problem." "So the supervisors can't be trusted on kashrus?" I asked. The rabbi was quick to assure me that it had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the supervisors directly. It's just that as a group they allow certain practices that he, personally, does not agree with, and so he won't recommend them. I'd come this far so I asked: "What practices?" The rabbi answered that he doesn't hold with any agencies which certify dairy products that are chalav stam, and he's been told by someone that the 3M does certify chalav stam products, so he doesn't recommend their products. "But this product is pareve" I wail. "Doesn't matter" the rabbi answered. "It's a question of consistency."

My shul rabbi still has not called back so I get on the phone to two friends, each living in a different community from mine. I ask if they have ever heard of the product or the supervising agency, and has their rabbi said anything about either. One friend begins to gush: "Their products are absolutely terrific. And our rabbi said that the supervising agency is small but can be trusted a lot more than some of the bigger agencies, because the supervisors are real hands-on and always in the plants." Friend number two has a different story to tell. Her rabbi gave a whole speech a few shabbosim before about the rise in certifying agencies bringing more harm than good. There is no way that every consumer nor every rabbi either can keep up with all the new agencies. This rabbi felt that you stick with the agencies that have a proven track record, are national in scope and that are easy to check out.The 3M is not on the list her rabbi has approved.

[I won't discuss the rabbi I called who basically told me it was too difficult a concept to be discussing with a woman, and would I please have my husband contact him. And I won't mention the rabbi I didn't call because someone, whom I asked for this rabbi's phone number, told me it is an open fact that this rabbi and one of the 3M rabbis have been in a real bitter public disagreement about a different issue, and I'm not likely to get a straight answer.]

My rabbi called back. I asked my questions once again. He told me that he doesn't really know anything about the products or the agency but he does know that the local Vaad HaKashrus, of which he is a member, has both on their list to investigate further since I am not the only one asking the questions. And then he casually mentioned that they hadn't hurried the investigation because someone had mentioned to one of the vaad members that one of the national certifying agencies is trying to either take over the whole certification process or at least be the one to certify the products that are manufactured for distribution in the NY area, or appear as a second hechsher on the product.

I got a sudden brainstorm. I know someone in the M state area, someone whose kashrus advice both my husband and I would consider as super reliable. So I made a phone call and asked my questions. When Rabbi_____ stopped laughing he told me the following. The product is made by a company that is strictly vegan. None of their products have any eggs, milk, fish or meat in them. They use zero questionable additives. In fact, the company came to the attention of the rabbi in one of the M states because the company contacted him for a list of suppliers of kosher commercial products that would 100% have no milk/meat in them and would not even be produced on machinery that had also produced milk products. The rabbi gives me all the information I asked for and then some, and he ended with this: "I should only be so sure about the kashrus of the big certifying agencies and the smaller ones in the NY area as I am about the 3M."

My hubby and I agree: I can buy the 3M product. I dash off to the market to buy the food. The product is all sold out. When I ask the manager when they are getting it back in, he mentions that there is a debate as to whether or not they will be carrying the product any more. He mentions that in some of the areas where his chain has stores there have been complaints about carrying a product marked as kosher that may or may not be kosher. He asks me if I know anything about this. I flee.

This story and variants of it are played out all over the US, and I would imagine globally as well, every day. We live in a time of instant communication and of plane service to just about every point on earth. We live in a time where rabbinic consultations are as close as your phone or your computer keyboard. We've got more rabbis per square foot of turf then at any other time in recent history. Despite the complexities of the world, kashrus information and supervision should be easier now than it was in the past. So why can't someone with a question get a straight answer? And substitute any other product requiring a hechsher for food and you are still going to run into the same variation of the old joke about 3 Jews and 5 opinions. I mention this to a friend and she tells me I'm being naive. Don't I know that kashrus supervision is big business? Don't I know that those supervision contracts are worth big bucks to whomever gets them? Don't I know that kashrus supervision can be a real dog-eat-dog world?

So I've got a different question now: Don't we deserve better than this when it comes to areas so important to our Jewish lives? Are we really so splintered as a Klal?

Addendum to the post: In Brooklyn, on Avenue J next to the subway station, is a Chock Full O Nuts tiny coffee shop. In the window is a huge printed sign that says "Yes, we are kosher." Inside are other signs that say "Our bourekas/knishes meet the standard for cholov Yisroel." They have both cholov stam and cholov Yisroel available for the coffee. There is not one single name anywhere as to who has said that the products are kosher. Never mind asking the workers--their English just about covers asking you what you'd like to drink. I've asked all over school about the kashrus. No one knows. Yet, the place is packed with frum Jews, or at least kipoh wearing ones. No black hats in sight.

Update on the Addendum: Tonight there was a small kashrus certificate put up in the store, behind the counter. It is signed by one R' Dovid Katz. But here is the strange part. At the top there is a magen david with a K. However, the Star K hechsher uses a plain magen david with no lines on the interior of the star. This star had lines running through the interior. Talk about confusion.