Okay, there's been lots of complaining about the present yeshiva system, particularly about the amount of tuition being charged. Instead of another complaint, I'd like to offer a series of small changes that could be made that could reduce tuition cost and parental complaining, at least a little bit.
My first suggestion is about the school week. There are many yeshivas out there for whom the school week runs Sunday to Friday, particularly boys yeshivas. I understand that Fridays in the winter months are foreshortened school days and yeshivas want to make up the "missing" time, so Sunday is what they chose. Those Sunday classes are a luxury that yeshivas just can't afford to host any longer. When tuition is so high that a significant number of parents can't begin to pay full tuition for their children, and so apply for scholarships or pull their kids out, yeshivas need to find real ways to scale back on expenses, and one less day of school is one of those real ways.
Rebbes today are making "real" salaries in most yeshivas, salaries that the gentlemen involved might not be able to make were they working in the secular world. And in addition to salary there are other benefits given, as well as some perks such as free or highly reduced tuition for their own kids. Many an administrator has justified those salaries by pointing out that Rebbes work 6 days a week. Time to get real. First, those Rebbes aren't working 6 full days a week, since Friday is shorter and so is Sunday. So yes, to begin with salaries are not in concert with the days worked. Now, take away Sunday classes and the Judaic studies staff is only working 4-1/3 days a week. Salaries could definitely be cut to reflect the shorter working hours, anywhere from 15 to 25% less. Add in that the administrative staff and office staff and maintenance staff would also be working less hours and that utilities and insurance costs would go down.
Tuition would still be pricey relatively speaking but there is a huge difference between paying $12-16K per child and paying $9-12 per child. Multiply that by three children in school and a real savings can be seen. Make that 4 or 5 kids and the difference is huge.
And this is only one price cut--there are plenty of other places to cut that I'll mention in later postings.
26 comments:
And parents' transportation costs and car-pooling time would be reduced.
Might work on the elementary level but the high schools will never buy into this. Many of the boys high schools already require the students to be dorming. This means they get the students 7 days a week with an occasional Shabbat at home. The other schools that don't have this dorm requirement would love to have it. Instead, you want them to cut hours. Can't see it happening.
All that aside, this is a place where schools could definitely save money for parents and for themselves. And as a benefit families would have that Sunday to spend some time together.
Get rid of most of the Administration layer. The Day Schools are as a general rule (JFS being a notable exception) incredibly top-heavy in expensive administrators.
Rebbes generally don't work short days on Fridays - Judaic studies run almost their regular full hours on Fridays, while secular classes are cut down to 30 minutes or so. Schools are more likely to cut out secular studies than to reduce rebbes' hours.
Many schools have already cut out librarians, art teachers, gym teachers, etc. They're looking for places to cut, but I'll bet not one school has cut hours or pay for rebbes.
Why not get rid of Friday altogether and have a full day on Sunday?
Because parents work Fridays but not Sundays.
I'm not so in favor of Sunday school, but cutting school hours to save money is swimming in dangerous territory. One state (Hawaii, I think, correct me if I'm wrong) starting doing a 4-day week in their public school system to cut education costs, and it does not seem to bode well for the children. I know Yeshivas tend to have longer days than public schools in general, but they also have more half-days and random days off. A lot of things can be cut, I'm not sure time in school should be one of them.
Take it one step further. There are about thirty Sundays in the school year. Let's get rid of them, and add six weeks of school on to the year! Same total number of days of school, but now parents save six weeks worht of summer camp/childcare. It's a neutral move for the schools in terms of costs, but a huge savings for parents.
Camps would certainly take a hit in terms of overall revenue, but that doesn't bother me so much.
sunday school is necessary because:
a) it shows we are different than the goyyim
b) boys can't skip learning torah for a day
c) parents can't be relied on to provide productive, structured, kosher activities on sunday.
As much as I would like to actually have a full day to do things with my boys on a Sunday or even be able to provide them extracariccular activities that cannot be done because of yeshiva on Sunday, you can't cancel sundays. Yeshiva on Sunday has nothing to do with making up time. in my sons' yeshiva there are no english classes on Friday or Sunday. The Torah says there is one day off a week, that is shabbos. Learning is not a 5 day a week prospect. The purpose of yeshiva is not to only provide state mandated education, it is also to be mechanech our children in the derech of Torah. To me it sounds counter productive to be mechanech in the derech of Torah while at the same time observing the xtian sabbath.
REJEWVENATOR:
"There are about thirty Sundays in the school year. Let's get rid of them, and add six weeks of school on to the year!"
i suggested something a bit different to my son's old school. get rid of those 30 sundays and use the savings to restore days during the week. at least this way parents don't have to scramble for day care for all those vacation and half days when they can't spend time with the kids anyway, and they can spend time with them on sundays when they (or many) have off anyway. and this preserves the income of the rebbeim.
the objections basically boiled down to what i desribed in the previous comment.
"Camps would certainly take a hit in terms of overall revenue, but that doesn't bother me so much."
not just the camps, but the rebbes who work in those camps.
Cutting out Sundays would only work if there were commensurate cuts in salary. I don't see any schools willing to cut rebbes' salaries. If anything, the trend (even in MO yeshivas) is to figure out how to cut costs by making changes to the secular side. It seems no one is willing to make any changes to the Judaics side. So, you'll hear people moaning about how secular education in the yeshivas is using "stone age" methods and that we need to get into the 21st century, but nary a mention of the same complaints regarding Judaic studies. Secular studies can be done online (and secular staff fired or salaries reduced) but never, ever, ever on the Judaics side.
So, I think this is dead in the water unfortunately.
I'm also surprised you didn't mention the most obvious issue with rebbe salary: part-time work (they don't work "9 to 5" and off during the summer).
I have no idea what they make, but let's say $45k salary (not including benefits or other costs to the school). Typical workweek is probably 27 hours, being generous (8-12:30 Su-Fr). School runs September to end of June, figure 40 weeks of work (time off for holidays and such are paid). That comes to $41.67/hour. That's a huge hourly salary. For a typical year-round 9-5, that would come to a salary of $86.7k.
I understand it's a little apples and oranges, but not by much.
Plus, many rebbes get additional salary by working during the summers. Plus, let's not forget parsonage which is a nice tax break. But, again, no savings will come from this area. The community (or, rather, the leadership) doesn't want it.
RESCUE37:
i would have accepted that response if the schools were consistent. so why then do the schools have so many other days without torah learning? winter break, the week before pesach, erev chag, isru chag, chol hamoed, the last week and a half of june, chanukah, shushan purim, civil holidays, etc.?
"To me it sounds counter productive to be mechanech in the derech of Torah while at the same time observing the xtian sabbath."
you think that families whose kids don't have sunday school go to church and abstain from activities that in the christian tradition profane the day? little league, going to museums, shopping, etc. is observing the christian sabbath?
JS:
"they don't work "9 to 5" and off during the summer"
also don't work many days when not summer. aside from summer, they have more vacations days than most people get in other jobs.
Yeah, you can argue they get far more vacation days than a typical employee. But, vacation days are paid in other jobs as well. Again, the issue is number, not that they're paid. I'm curious how many actual days off there are. I suppose it depends on the year and when the holidays fall. I imagine it's around 4 weeks off total. Certainly that's a lot of days for a full-time year-round employee let alone a part-time, no summers employee.
Up your estimate JS to more than four weeks. This year Rosh Hashanah and Sukkos account for 10-11 days off. Shavuous will add another 2. There's also Purim for a day or two. Some schools don't have limudei kodesh on some of the tanisim. Most yeshivas give a day off or two during Chanukah. Then there is the midwinter break of a week. Then there will be Pesach off including the day before and isru chag--ciould be another 8-10 days. Then there are some of the legal holidays that yeshivas also close. And then there are various conference days off. Now add in some snow days and some sick days.
Amazing how they know that parents will take care of the Torah learning on all those days off but apparently can't figure it out for Sunday.
As a working mom I hate that my boys have school on Sunday. During the week there's barely enough time to make and eat dinner, get homework done, shower and get to bed. Almost no time for family time. Then there's things like haircuts, regular doctor checkups, visiting the grandparents, library trips for school work, and shopping for things the kids need.
Stores don't have extended hours or late hours on Sundays and by the time the boys get home there's a mad rush to try and get a few things done outside.
You're right that it wouldn't hurt that no Sunday classes would have to bring tuition down cuz the school would have less hours and they couldn't logically or ethically claim that expenses were just the same Sunday or no Sunday.
NL: Family time (other than Shabbat and Yom Tov meals) is goyishe.
RESCUE37:
let's look at it from a different angle.
we all have certain things we expect from the school, whether educationally or hashkafically. for you sunday school is an imperative. that would be fine if this were an ideal world. but it isn't. the fact is that there needs to be cost cutting. it can be done in various ways. do you really think that sunday school is a yehareg ve-al ya'avor, the sine qua non for a frum education? are you willing to keep sunday school at the expense:
1) sacrificing educational quality
2) sacrificing other hashkafically important ideals
3) some families will have fewer kids
4) some families will send kids to public school
any or all of these will result absent some possibly painful sacrifices in what one expects from a school. get used to it.
The most useful educational change isn't educational, it's linguistic. I believe that more damage is done in the Jewish community by the phraseology of "more religious" to refer to anything more right-wing than ANYTHING else.
This has caused the modern orthodox to see themselves as "less religious" and therefore chasing their tails. This has allowed the modern orthodox to chase whatever the chareidim are doing in an attempt to be "more religious," and it causes the schools to take stupid positions like this and make them universal.
Sunday classes drives up costs. Increasing tuition costs mean less money for other things, and since money=time, it also leaves less time for other things.
Less money means less Tzedakah for the needy, fewer Jewish children born, less family time because of more work hours, and other trade-offs.
I have no problem with families choosing that trade-off, but I do have a problem with supposedly modern orthodox Jews shooting their mouths about the "more religious" schools and then wondering why this happens.
Unfortunately, in the zeal to solve a legitimate community crisis, people are targeting those who deserve our respect, not criticism - Rebbeim.
For years, Rebbeim have been working for a minimal salary. Ask somebody in Yeshiva who plans to enter Chinunch, and he (or she) will tell you that it is clearly not for the money. To somehow use gimmicks to show that Rebbeim are making more than $40 per hour is absurd.
Some facts:
1. Rebbeim who take their jobs seriously, are putting in many more hours than the standard work day. How many of you learn Gemara with your son? If you are not reading straight out of artscroll, it takes time to prepare. If you have a class of 25 students, you need to be prepared and this takes time.
2. The fact that many schools offer free tuition is certainly a perk - and something well deserved.Excluding R. Teitz's Yeshiva, how many Rabbeim could truly afford to work if they had to pay full tuition? BTW, schools offering staff tuition breaks is something practiced across all denominations.
3. Don’t lose sight of the long term goal - a Yeshiva education for our children. It costs a whole lot of money, and there are things to be done about that. But stop constantly attacking the Rabbeim. All you will do is ensure that the only people who do enter the field of Chinuch will be people who could not do anything else. Then you will truly have a crisis.
"To somehow use gimmicks to show that Rebbeim are making more than $40 per hour is absurd."
That "gimmick" is called "mathematics."
"Rebbeim who take their jobs seriously, are putting in many more hours than the standard work day."
This is a lame reason. Practically every job nowadays requires time put in outside of the office. We're all attached to BlackBerrys and expected to be available around the clock to meet client/boss demands. Don't like it then find a different job. It's factoids like this that tick off people who work in the "secular world."
"The fact that many schools offer free tuition is certainly a perk - and something well deserved ... how many Rabbeim could truly afford to work if they had to pay full tuition?"
How many families with two working spouses can afford to pay tuition? Most schools have at least half of their families on scholarships. It says something when half your clientele can't afford your product. As for the employees not able to afford the product, should I bemoan the sales clerks and checkout employees at Saks 5th Avenue or Tiffany's? I'm sure their salaries don't allow them to buy the wares they sell. Those stores can afford to give their employees an "employee discount", I don't think the schools can given how few families can afford full freight.
"Don’t lose sight of the long term goal - a Yeshiva education for our children."
Wrong. The goal is for our children to continue being frum. Yeshiva education is just one approach to solving that problem. That attitude turns yeshiva education into a sacred cow which prevents clear thinking and takes certain options completely off the table. As I mentioned before, no one is talking about cuts on the limudei kodesh side, only on the secular side. It's okay to talk about math and English teachers making too much money and discuss how to cut their salaries/jobs with online learning, but God forbid we do the same with the rabbeim teaching gemara.
"But stop constantly attacking the Rabbeim. All you will do is ensure that the only people who do enter the field of Chinuch will be people who could not do anything else."
No one's attacking the rabbeim. We're discussing problems with the yeshiva system. As for hiring "people who could not do anything else" I think we already have that problem, unfortunately.
1. Rebbeim who take their jobs seriously, are putting in many more hours than the standard work day. How many of you learn Gemara with your son? If you are not reading straight out of artscroll, it takes time to prepare. If you have a class of 25 students, you need to be prepared and this takes time.
ALL teachers need to prepare, be they science teachers, math teachers, or gemara teachers. Given how slowly the Orthodox world accepts change, it's very unlikely that the gemara taught in 5772 will differ from the gemara taught in 5771. Sure, it's necessary to review and brush up, but it's not like it's a whole new curriculum each year.
>>"Don’t lose sight of the long term goal - a Yeshiva education for our children."
>>>Wrong. The goal is for our children to continue being frum.
Isn't the goal limud hatorah?
>>, it's very unlikely that the gemara taught in 5772 will differ from the gemara taught in 5771. Sure, it's necessary to review and brush up, but it's not like it's a whole new curriculum each year.
Many (most?) RW highschools do a different masechta every year for the entire school. So yes, it is a different curriculum every year. (it's usually a 5-10 yr cycle, so eventually it does repeat, but reteaching something last taught 5 years ago also involves preparation)
Anonymous 4:37,
"Isn't the goal limud hatorah?"
No. If you gave Yeshiva parents two choices in outcomes for their children:
A) their children were relatively ignorant of Torah, but observant and Frum
B) their children were as knowledgeable as their Rebbes, but not observant and potentially intermarried
the parents would choose A. You can gnash your teeth that if they were knowledgable, they wouldn't go OTD, but beyond being historically accurate, you're talking about goals.
So no, the goal is not "limud hatorah" it really is "frum."
"Many (most?) RW highschools do a different masechta every year for the entire school. So yes, it is a different curriculum every year. (it's usually a 5-10 yr cycle, so eventually it does repeat, but reteaching something last taught 5 years ago also involves preparation)"
Is that in the interests of the Rebbeim, to be doing something different each year, or in the interests of the students?
Think aliya. The difference in what you make in America and what you make in Israel is offset by not having to pay the tuiton. The cost of tuition is not really anybody's fault. The tax money you pay for the upkeep of the public schools is something for which you get little or no value. In Israel a Jew is a mainstream citizen who gets basic Jewish education for their kids, varying according to choice, with additions based on parental option to pay more. You can earn a lot less, live in a Jewish country with no Santa Clauses on the street in December etc., and still come out ahead. Do it while your kids are still small. Don't wait.
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