Jameel (and others) posted the following as regards the use of what is called "Shabbos Elevators." I certainly cannot post with 100% assurance that the psak shown is actually the psak given nor whether it was in answer to a specific question or concern, which is also not given. However, my complaint is that anything with such possible major effect on frum lifestyle ought to have been publicly discussed well in advance of such a psak. We should have heard these words spoken and the subject spoken about well before we ever got to four signatures on a psak. And yes, the reasons, in detail, into why this psak was given should also have been stated. The Gemorah and other of our writings are chock full of the reasoning behind rulings. A psak is not just a psak but also a chance for real learning to take place, but only if all the parts are shown.
There are whole swaths of frum Jews in the US (and elsewhere) who are affected by this psak. NYC in particular is a place of apartment dwellers, mostly in high rise buildings. Any number of people who are going to find themselves "trapped" in their apartments on Shabbos if this psak is true as written. The elderly and infirm will find themselves prisoners of their apartments come Shabbos, with no way to get out and no way for others to get in to see them and care for them. Shabbos hospital visitation will dwindle down to nothing. Nursing home residents will be stuck in their rooms over Shabbos, including no davening and no communal meals. No, it is not realistic to assume that it's "no big deal" for people to walk down 5,6,7 or more flights of stairs and then walk up them again, and do it at least 3 times on a Shabbos. It will be interesting to see how the American rabbinate responds, as well as rabbanim in Israel and elsewhere.
http://muqata.blogspot.com/2009/09/r-elyashiv-shabbat-elevators-forbidden.html
15 comments:
"NYC in particular is a place of apartment dwellers, mostly in high rise buildings. Any number of people who are going to find themselves "trapped" in their apartments on Shabbos if this psak is true as written."
i haven't seen jameel's post, but this sounds horrible.
(i do wonder if all the men who oppose eruvin, thus effectively trapping young women at home, will now reconsider their opposition in that matter once they too feel what it is like. what goes around comes around.)
Couldn't they let us have even 24 hours after Yom Kippur without some new controversy?! Can't wait to see what the truth of all of this turns out to be, because there are some serious holes in this statement.
There is always going to be an uneasy relationship between halacha and new technology. The question is who is actually presenting the ins and outs of that technology to the people who are going to give a psak. What are their qualifications re the technology and do they know how to present it so it makes sense to those who give the psak? And from what I'm gathering from the discussion online, who actually gets the access to the poskim to give them the correct info?
Despite all the communication capabilities that we have, getting any real, solid information seems to be getting harder, not easier.
SHUA:
"an uneasy relationship between halacha and new technology"
unless there is a new type of elevator, shabbat elevators are not new technology
Lion--
Not claiming to be an expert but from what I've been reading some people are saying that it may be the new advances in elevators that are what are the problem. Also, seems that some people thought even the old technology of an elevator was a problem as far as Shabbos use was concerned.
It seems really unclear as to why the psak came out now--is this finally a reaction to the old technology or is this to something new which makes it a problem d'oraisah. Without more information we are all dancing around in the dark.
This is the same kind of ruling that you hear from the Rabbis who say one should not go on vacation. These people do not know what it is to walk up and down (or not be able to walk & down) 15 floors on a Shabbos. When I was young and found myself on the 23rd floor on Shabbos with no Shabbos elevator (yes, kids they had them in those days), we walked down and up. I am pretty sure I could not do it now, 26 years later.
It is all a ploy to lead us to only want to stay at home, cook and clean and send ALL our money (not just 10%) to deserving Kollels.
NaviW, this goes way beyond hotels used for vacations. I don't think these rabbanim want men to stay home and not go to shul on Shabbos, but that will be the result for many if they assur Shabbos elevators they way they seem to have done. I couldn't make it down those 15 flights right now either. Hell, I couldn't make it up and down seven flights. My dad for sure couldn't make it up and down even three flights. So we stay home and don't go daven? All the elevators in our building are older than my kids are--no new technology to worry about.
I just want to ask Why Now?
One of the things I find troubling is that by changing the rules, that means there will be people, who had they known earlier, would not have rented or bought an upper floor condo or apartment, are now stuck. Elderly and infirm people (particularly if low income) can't just pick up and move. I pray no one (g-d forbid) has a cardiac event in a stairwell because they now try to walk up and down more flights than appropriate for their health.
Before everyone goes into a tizzy here, realize that the matter is still unclear and confused and there may not be a shift here, just a misunderstanding (as reported elsewhere).
Lion of Zion : "(i do wonder if all the men who oppose eruvin, thus effectively trapping young women at home, will now reconsider their opposition in that matter once they too feel what it is like. what goes around comes around.)"
Lion, out of order. Halachic issues are decided based on halachah, and hysterical rhetoric such as such claims of cruelty to women should be left out of it.
"However, my complaint is that anything with such possible major effect on frum lifestyle ought to have been publicly discussed well in advance of such a psak. We should have heard these words spoken and the subject spoken about well before we ever got to four signatures on a psak."
I see - how exactly do you envision this taking place practically?
Anonymous,
There are a number of possible ways a public "discussion" could take place. For one thing (and this is not a new method) a letter could have gone out that stated that the issue of Shabbos elevators is again under serious consideration due to X,Y and Z. It could have been four letters, sent by each of the signatories to the psak, and to be published in whichever "frum" media publication is acceptable. Wouldn't matter which media because all the others would pick it up post haste, as would the various sites on the Internet.
Such a letter might, just might, have contained a warning to those considering buying apartments or renting them in high rise buildings. It might have warned those who are as I write in Israel in hotels for Sukkos that are high rises and that use Shabbos elevators. Pray tell, what are these people to do now?
Notice could have gone out to the "frum" technical and scientific groups and institutes (and yes there are some)that there is a problem as these rabbanim see it. There should have been meetings between these rabbanim and these groups, meetings that were noted and reported on publicly. Certainly those who are frum and work in the technology fields are the ones with the knowledge of how things work.
If one person came to the rabbanim and told them there is a problem, frankly it's bad "science" to base a decision on one person's observations or comments. Taking the "discussion" public would have brought in a variety of opinions and a whole lot more facts.
There is also this, brought up by one of the commenters above: is it all Shabbos elevators that are being ossured or only those with the newest technology? If you live in a building with 20 year old elevators are your elevators still okay according to the psak that we have been living under for the past 20 years?
The timing of this psak bothers me. Sukkos coincides with Shabbos this year. In order for someone living in an apartment building to use a sukkah they usually have to go to the shul sukkah or some other communal sukkah. At best a few places allow tenants to put up a small sukkah in a courtyard somewhere. If you hold by this psak, and you can't easily go down flights of stairs, then you aren't going to be able to eat in a sukkah or go to shul. In one sense this psak just took away the ability to celebrate Shabbos and Yom Tov the way they are supposed to be.
My grandfather is in a rehab home. Someone asked the director there if this psak from Israel was going to affect how the home does things. He answered that the Rav who paskens for them has not changed his psak and so the Shabbos elevators will be running as usual. Maybe a stupid question, but who are you supposed to follow when a psak like this comes out? Your Rav? A godol from Israel?
If you're not healthy enough to walk stairs, you shouldn't be a prisoner for being observant, period. (imo)
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