I was speaking with a former student last week whose unpaid internship is turning into a paid job for the summer. I congratulated him and made the offhand comment that at least he could pay for his dating now. His answer? "Just barely." While I don't know everything about this student in intimate detail, we've spoken enough for me to know that he doesn't buy into the "Buy, buy, buy, pay, pay, pay" lifestyle. So, just how much is it costing for young people to date today?
Hotel lounges are not known for their budget drinks. A coke can cost you $8-10 each, and for most lounges, there is no free refill. Say you are spending a few hours in that lounge. You can't just sit there and nurse one coke for two hours--the lounge would highly frown on that. So two small cokes apiece is $40--and add on a $6 tip minimum to that. [Yes, I know. There are most likely cheaper lounges, and some of them/most of them "pahst nisht" to take a date to for various reasons.]
If you happen to be meeting each other at the lounge you are probably paying your own transportation. If not, there is a car involved. Depending on from where you are coming, there is going to be a bridge and/or tunnel charge and then there is parking. Finding a free parking spot in Manhattan is way harder than finding your bashert. Metered parking? Some of those meters won't give you 2 hours and you're going to have to run out and feed the meter or risk a hefty ticket. Or you can bite the bullet and put the car into a parking garage. Garage fees? About $25 for that lounge date. More if you are spending more time together. And these charges are for a "cheap" date.
Let's not even talk about what it could cost if you are having your date as a meal in a restaurant. And let's not even talk about what entrance fees there are if you go to a museum. Let's not talk about what performance tickets could run you. And you still need to offer a date something to drink or eat on these types of dates.
A different student mentioned that his parents knew that dating was going to be part of the equation when they sent him to NY, so they budget about $300 a month for him to date. $300!!! He's been in NY two years now. Even with time spent at home, that's about $6000 the parents have spent for their son to date.
And for those who attend singles affairs, whether week night or weekend, the cost can be even more. I just got an email about a Shabbos being held in Fire Island for "only" $230 for Shabbos, and that doesn't include getting there. A different midweek evening is "only" $75 and includes something to eat at the restaurant where the event is being held. This isn't even payment for a date--it's payment for trying to get a date.
The younger you are the more likely that parents are paying for any dates. And if a parent should happen to have two or more boys in the parsha at the same time? Oy veh!! No where in any of the budgets that I've seen discussed have I heard mentioned that you need to budget for your sons--and for your daughters--to date.
Dating--yet another item that adds to the expenses of having frum kids.
Note: I am quite aware that those who are not frum also have expenses when they date. Asking some of my non-Jewish students about dating expenses brought to light that unless they are really trying to impress someone, a meal for two or drinks in a bar or a movie and cokes does not cost as much as I'm hearing mentioned by the frum boys. And for them hanging out can also constitute a date.
20 comments:
A woman was telling me about her son's dating. He's in yeshiva, and doesn't involve his parents. The roshei yeshiva and married friends make the shidduchim. Sometimes he takes the parents' car, but he usually "tremps." And the dates? They go for a walk. No expenses involved.
The problem is NOT that dating is expensive. The problem is that parents are subsidizing it at all. How can you be ready to support your own family if you aren't even ready to support your dating habit?
If our young men and women were expected to pay their own way when it cam to dating, you'd also see a lot less of the expensive restaurants and hotel lounge dates. It's not like there aren't cheaper alternatives, it's that there's a willing subsidy for the more expensive ones.
Anyone who is old enough to date is old enough to hold a job and pay for his/her own dating expenses. There is no reason why parents should pay for their children's dating.
motherinisrael, that may work in Israel where weather isn't a big factor but it wouldn't work in NY. I went on walking dates here but a whole lot of them turned into inside dates because of rain, sleet, snow, freezing cold or muggy hotness. And tremping from Brooklyn to Far Rockaway and then doing it on the return trip is just not going to happen.
SuperRaizy and Rejewvenator: I don't fully agree. Frum kids are inculcated to believe that they have to marry quite young, and for girls, that you are an old maid at 23. How many kids in college can afford to pay for this type of dating as well as books, food, clothes, etc? The key issue is not whether they can be semi self-sufficient when they date, but whether they can be self-sufficient by the time they start a family.
My parents had two simple rules when my brother and I got older. First, you can date when you can afford to pay for it. Second, you can get married when you can afford to support yourself. Both my brother and I learned about the value of money early on. We worked full time during summers and part time during the school year. I can just imagine what my father would have said if I told him I need $3000 a year for dating.
To be honest though, we did borrow his car to go out on dates. That he didn't mind. As long as we remembered to put gas in.
Coming from the girl's end of things, I personally feel very uncomfortable when a guy spends a lot of money on me. I start adding it all up in my head and going, "Whaaaaat?!" I am very budget-conscious and would want a husband to be the same. Not necessarily cheap, per se, but not extravagant either.
Stupidity.
MII has it right, basically, not that every detail she writes can be always duplicated, but that such things can be done for little or no funds.
For starters, to get people thinking, there are free or reduced charge hours at many museums and other attractions. For example, see http://www.newyorkology.com/archives/2009/03/free_hours_at_m.php
Things can be done without cars. Has anyone heard of things like subways, ferries and walking? Why are certain parts of the frum world so car dependent?
A few points:
1) This is all the parents' fault as they use money to bribe their children to date. The children aren't so interested, so the parents or grandparents shtup them with money to encourage them to date - usually the idea is to date lots of different girls to find "the one" and to impress the girls.
2) NYC has so many activities and options available that are free or nearly free and yet every date is exactly the same. Hotel lounge, visit Toys R Us in Times Square, Revolving restaurant, etc. My SIL told me if she goes there one more time on a date she's going to scream. These guys put zero thought or creativity into the date. They do what everyone else does, no matter how expensive (after all, they're not paying) and don't care if the girl has been to the same place countless times.
3) These dates always center more on the activity than on getting to know the person. It's always rushing from place to place from activity to activity. It's about having fun more than talking. This is not only expensive, but the date ends and the girl/guy realizes they just spent several hours with a person and they know hardly anything about him/her.
4) There's way too much focus on dating before people get to know themselves - what they want, who they are, their goals, aspirations, values, etc. Dating becomes a process of finding yourself by finding another person. This is why people often date many tens of people before finding "the one." It's just a waste of time and money and incredibly confusing for those dating.
5) The expectation that dating should be quick and engagement should come as soon as possible puts tons of stress on those dating and basically forces the guy to do everything possible to impress - tons of activities, lots of expensive dates. Each date MUST impress as there are so few of them.
Plus it gets really expensive if the guy has to rent a car to take the girl out.
My parents always say that they are really lucky, because even tho my sisters and me are/were in shidduchim for years, my brother got married almost right away. He barely wasted money on dates with other girls.
Anachronism--there were plenty of rabbis who would agree with you about the emphasis on cars in dating and that spoke up about the danger of boys and girls dating and being in a car together alone. The shtuss that came out was really unbelievable. One rabbi said they can't ride in the car together unless at least one window was opened. Then there was the rabbi who said that if they have to be in the car together he should drive and she should sit in the back seat. There were others but the best was the rabbi who wrote that girls should under no circumstance wear a seatbelt while in the car because when it was fastened it emphasized her upper body.
Why does the boy have to spend all the money? In many frum families, the wife is the primary breadwinner - at least for the first several years, and the couple expects the girl's family to pay for a big wedding and then to help support them. The bride and groom give each other gifts that the parent's pay for, so aren't really true gifts from one to the other. The couple should go dutch treat.
Even with time spent at home, that's about $6000 the parents have spent for their son to date.
My opinion, if he's not old enough to work, he's not old enough to date seriously. My parents never paid for any of my dates, and never paid for any of my siblings dates.
Dating in NY is VERY expensive. For me, it was more than 20 years ago, but even then it was very costly. First of all, I worked in New Jersey, lived in Staten Island, and mostly dated in Manhattan, with girls living in Brooklyn, Queens, Lawnguyland, and Manhattan, and a few from NJ. So, just the tolls alone were killer, and that's back when the bridges/tunnels were $3 or $3.50 and the Verazzano was $6 or 7. Then the parking in the city was killer ($20 for the first hour or so). Dinner was costly (I usually did dinner dates because of timing and mostly coming directly from work), and sometimes a show or other entertainment of some sort was costly as well. So a typical date was $100 or north of that. These were early dates, but after dating for a little bit, most often simpler things would be chosen (but not always, once I took a date on a Cessna flight all around the city, oy was that expensive! It was her idea, and I got plane sick.) that were less expensive. Best date I can recall in the NY area was a picnic I prepared and we had somewhere upstate near Bear Mountain. Worst dates were any of the ones near a bar or drinking.
Mark
Who says you have to do anything at all on a date?
On my first date with my husband, everything went wrong. We showed up to the place where we had planned to go, and it was closed for renovations. We decided to try the local pizza place, but it was packed and the line was out the door. A million and one other things didn't work out, and our "dinner" that night consisted of ice cream bars and soda purchased at a bodega. We ended up walking around town doing absolutely NOTHING. And yet, we had so much fun. We were laughing about how we were on a date doing nothing. We were laughing about all the hiccups of that evening. We enjoyed ourselves immensely and decided then and there that we would go out again. All the rest of our dates were like that- maybe we'd go for pizza if we got hungry, but that was it- our dates were just walking, talking, and sitting on park benches and talking some more. We did the typical zoo/museum date once or twice. The fact that we enjoyed each others company without having to do something, without needing an 'itinerary' was proof enough that we were compatible, not to mention the serious conversations we had revealed the important things we needed to know about each other.
I highly recommend that everyone try at least one 'nothing' date (maybe not the first one, but at some point). If you can make it through that, then you can have more of those, hence cutting down on expenses; if you can't, the person may very likely not be for you.
M2B, those lounge dates are like those nothing dates you are describing, except they are indoors instead of outdoors. There isn't anything else to do but talk to each other. I'm not a JAP, but I wouldn't have been happy to be walking all over Manhattan, eating cold ice cream with the temperature in the 30s and 40s. Your way may work during warm weather but sitting on a park bench during a NY winter? Sure hope you have health insurance if you try it.
M2B: Great story. It's good to see how a potential spouse deals with adverse or unexpected events. It's much easier to see a person's true personality under those circumstances then during the "perfect" date with a perfect dinner, perfect cab driver, perfect weather, etc.
when i starting dating i made a deal with my parents that i would pay for the date activity, and they would pay gas and tolls. it was a great deal, i had money stashed away that i would use, and i'd be fine.
that worked for 3 months. even if you dont step foot into a restaurant until the 3rd or 4th date, it still costs money for parking, other activities, etc. (i started dating in the winter, so no walks in the park)
i figured out ways to save early on. like free parking on the avenues after 7 -there is no parking whatsoever during the day(if she's from brooklyn, pick her up at 6:30, and glide into an empty street at exactly 7) or shop around online for parking garages coupons(centralparking.com)
the least i ever spent on a girl, who lasted for more than one date was $60.
it adds up really quickly
Those who are financially responsible realize that yeshiva tuition is the Jewish birth control....
Is this the dating equivalent? Maybe this is the excuse for absurdly short dating/engagements...
Nahhh, that would mean there would be way more financially responsible couples around. The current tuition crisis, and busting birthrates prove that there is no correlation between the two phenomenons.
Supposedly the girls spend a fortune on hair and nails and makeup for dates too. Some girls get their hair straightened for every date.
tesyaa - Supposedly the girls spend a fortune on hair and nails and makeup for dates too. Some girls get their hair straightened for every date.
Oy, if they only knew that the guys are hardly observant at all and don't notice most of that stuff. As long as a girl is "a girl" and reasonably put together, most of us (guys) don't care for the rest of the faputzt stuff. And, if any girls are listening, I'll let you in on a secret, we really, really, hate all that makeup. Maybe just a little tiny bit if necessary, but ...
Mark
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