Some of you are teaching now or have taught in the past. If so, you know all about having to make up a syllabus for a class. The syllabus organizes things for you and for the students. You look at what you are supposed to make sure the students have been exposed to and then divide it up appropriately given the number of weeks in the term.
All teachers have sometimes run into the problem that they wish they could stretch the term by another week, maybe two. There just doesn't seem to be enough time to cover everything the way you want it to be covered. But the term ending date is set in stone, so you do the best you can.
Even when you have the syllabus set to your liking, you meet your class for the first time and everything starts to fall apart. Some classes have less background knowledge than they should and so you have to build in extra work into an already jam-packed schedule. Some classes will move faster than you anticipated, so you scramble to add material. Try as you might, syllabus construction is not an exact science. The only constant is the number of weeks in the term.
Now let's take the ideas of syllabus construction and apply them to shidduchim--lots of people out there who already do so. There is a "list" of information that is considered necessary to find out about while dating. And there is a "term limit" of 8 dates. Those dates also have hour limits in some communities. Singles turn themselves inside out trying to cover all the information gathering without exceeding the time limits. Sometimes one or both of the datees is not following the same syllabus order and so each scrambles to add or subtract units to be covered. And it all has to happen within 8 dates. Really? Who said so? Yes, yes, I know--"They" said so.
The original school calendar, with its summer months free, was set up so that students would be out of school to help their parents during the harvest season. Slowly we have seen that calendar adjusted and changed as the reality of modern life starts to govern the calendar. School days have gotten longer and in some cases we already have year-round school. The "holiness" of the school calendar isn't so holy after all. Just what parallel logic has declared 8 as the right number of dates before deciding on a marriage partner? Given the higher percentage of divorces within the frum community and the shalom bayis problems, perhaps its time to junk the 8 date "rule."
How long is long enough? As long--or short--as it takes. Singles are individuals with unique composition. What works time-wise for one will not work for another. Artificial time limits force decisions before someone is ready to make that decision, and many times those "no's" might have been yesses if the couple was left alone to make an unhurried decision. And maybe some of those yesses might have turned into no's. Will some couples take what might seem like a long time before coming to a decision? Quite possibly. And what's wrong with that? Some people are simply not ready or able to make such a life-altering decision on the basis of 16 hours of acquaintance. Some people, despite having been put into the shidduch parshah, are not ready to be there.
Marriage is supposed to be forever. Shouldn't we give dating couples a sensible chance to discover whether or not someone is the right person for them before harnessing them together for the long haul? The 8-date shtuss has to go and common sense says now.
20 comments:
I imagine that a young lady that I know is not the only one who got burned by this 8 date madness. The eighth date came and went and neither she or the boy was quite ready to say a marriage was coming. But the parents said enough is enough and the dating ended.
The kids didn't listen, lucky for them, and cell phone calls and text messaging and a few meetings when they were both supposed to be shopping allowed them the time they needed. It took them almost 4 months to decide on yes. You can't imagine how shocked their parents were to find themselves with a choson and a kallah they never figured on.
Continue to hold on to the 8 date rule and sneaking around is going to become the rule instead of the exception.
Tht eight date madness was not around when I was dating. If there ever was a reason given for it no one remembers who gave it or why. The problem is that I don't think it's a good idea and know lots of other people who don't either. But our kids are dating in a "system" that has 8 as the rule. How do you get rid of it while still being in the system?
Five months of dating is now considered VERY slow. More than slightly disturbing to me...
Who knows how much diasaster has been wrought by this rule and others and how much potential has gone unfulfilled because of it.
Also, there is somewhat of a competition to date for short amounts of time. When I mentioned just how "long" I'd known my husband, a new friend was almost critical of our dating time frame of 5-6 months. She had only been on 6 dates and engaged for far less time.
The divorce rate is certainly going through the roof and I have no doubt that the quick, quick, quick nature of the dating and the rush to the chuppah is partially responsible.
It took me a few months of serious study of all the data out there before I bought a car. In fact it took me longer than 16 hours to make most decisions of importance. But someone thinks that finding a wife should take less time then buying a car? I don't buy into this and I don't need a girl who does either. Makes it harder to find a date but at least I know no one will be sitting there with a stop watch timing my dates. Real shtuss!
Amen.
As a note, I doubt that the 8-date rule is generally applied; the people who get married faster *usually* are those who come in knowing that they're haskafically almost perfect for one another [i.e. very RW, follows certain Rabbonim/guidelines, etc.], so it cuts out what for most is a large factor to determine.
But SL is probably right.
I once worked with a girl in camp as a counselor. I spent the summer with her. Someone called to ask all kinds of specific information about her for a shidduch. I had to answer that I didn't know. If I couldn't answer some of those questions about a girl I saw every day then how was I supposed to make a decision about marrying someone that I knew even less well? My husband and I met Shabbos Nachamu and got engaged right after Chanukah. It wouldn't have happened if we had had to punch a time clock. Don't know what there is that is so magical about the number 8.
This last week alone we heard of two engagements that went back and a vort we are supposed to be going to next week may not happen because the word traveling around is that there is real trouble and the engagement may break off. You'd think that whoever is in charge of things would know that a broken engagement is a lot worse for shidduchim purposes then going out for more then 8 times is. You know what? Who is in charge? Where do all these rules we are supposed to follow really come from?
A long time ago, before I was married, I went out with a girl who after 3 dates started talking about engagement. I felt like I barely knew her!!
Unfortunatly a faux Shidduch Crisis is scaring frum men and women into getting married as quickly as possible.
This behavior is becoming the norm and young men and women are getting married without knowing enough about their spouse and well before they're ready.
My brother's family is more to the right then we are religiously and I was shocked when my nephew came home from Israel before Pesach with the intention of getting engaged and before Pesach he was! He went back to Israel right after Pesach and only came back for the wedding right after Shavuous. They came nowhere near 8 dates. My son wondered if they would even recognize each other if they were accidentally together somewhere they weren't expecting to see the other person. What kind of bond can a couple form over two hours of cokes?
I didn't know there was an 8 rule. In my day--over 20 years ago--we did understand that by 3, you really liked the guy and by 5, you were probably going to marry him. No one pushed by date numbers, but they did push by months. You were supposed to be engaged by 3 months, longer would be under a microscope and everyone would be putting in their two cents. After the 3 months, you were supposed to be engaged for 3 months. Longer would be weird. The fear was and is the whole Negia thing. "They" are terrified that these kids are going to go at it in the back seat of the Honda while parked in the airport Marriot parking lot. All I can say to that is, I get it, but reality wise, that just doesn't happen that often. In our day, they taught us the Halachos of Yichud and Negia, sort of, and sent us on our merry way. The rules were pretty tough in Yeshivaland 20 years ago, but now, it's off the map.
Question: Everywhere I read that divorce rate in Frum community is high and getting higher, but I can't find any real statistics. Can anyone show me something concrete?
Comment: A few years ago I was talking about people getting married too quickly before they know each other and this one young woman (she was around 25 at the time) told me not to freak out. I'm paraphrasing: "Calm down. These people know what they are doing. They are getting married and then they decide if they want to stay married to that person" I was speachless by that statement, but I did manage to ask what happenes if they decide not to "stay-married", but she is already pregnant. This woman thought that I was crazy to even ask that. She said, "There is no problem, her next husband will raise that baby as his own, just like his own child is being raises by the ex's second husband" Why even date, if people think that way. Get married, live together for a few months and if you don't like each other then just divorce. Simple and easy. (I hope these people don't have big weddings...)
LEAHLE
"the word traveling around is that there is real trouble and the engagement may break off"
i feel bad for them even if they work it out
(I hope these people don't have big weddings...)
Yet another reason to pay for a wedding upfront. I know a family paying off a wedding that has already ended in divorce. Sad. I'm sure this family is one of many unfortunately.
mlevin,
Yours is a very good question. I have yet to see published figures anywhere, although I could have missed them, for the divorce rates among the frum. Most of the figures are anecdotal and are coming from those who deal in some way with the fallout of divorce--rabbonim involved in giving a get, frum lawyers, social workers and marriage counselors. A school principal I spoke with, who has been so for many decades,reported to me that the number of children coming into the school from divorced homes has gone up almost 1000% since when he first came to the school. Where once he might have had one child out of 100 from a divorced home today he says that he gets close to ten out of 100.
He didn't say so but I'll add in that the larger number of children from divorced homes will not mean that 1 out of 10 marriages is ending in divorce--families are larger today so the number of children from divorced homes may not be an accurate indicator of the number of divorces.
Or the school has children from divorced families.
When I was looking for a high school for my daughter people recommended one school which has a great academic education both in Jewish and Secular subjects. But when I asked my rabbi he advised against it. He said that this school "specializes" in kids from divorced families...
What, kids from divorced homes need to be segregated in their own schools?! It's not exactly like it's a catchy disease. Or maybe an attempt to hide that the problem exists so let's get the kids out of sight of everyone else. Where are our brains today?!!!
I grew up in a community that had the 8-date norm. I would get so anxious before a date knowing that I had only a little bit of time to decide yes or no that I would start panicking and every answer was no. All my friends were married already and everyone began looking at me like I was leftover sale merchandise. I finally got the courage to do something for myself--I moved out of my parents community and away to someplace where the 8-date business is not the rule. And yes I B"H got married and to the right person. And it took us both about 4 months to see that. If I would have stayed at home I never would have gotten married.
There are still people who shake their head at me and claim that my bashert would have found me anyway even if I had done the correct thing and stayed in my parents house.
Making a marriage isn't the same as baking a cake, and using the same approach is ridiculous. You need to follow an exact recipe with the cake because you want it to be the same every time you bake it. Marriage and who to marry and how to decide who to marry and when to make the decision is different for every person.There isn't one recipe that will fit everyone.
You know what happens when you make everyone wear the same size shoe? Lots of people who get blisters and broken toes and lots of people whose foot slips out of the shoe completely. Too many married people today who are wearing the wrong shoes and are suffering for it. They should have been allowed to shop around longer and get a perfect fit.
Lissa - if you let them shop around longer and get a perfect fit, they may choose something that doesn't look good to the rest of the community. They may choose red shoes instead of a standard black. That's why young people are rushed. They only get black shoes to choose from and all other color choices are not even displayed.
Post a Comment