Marriage, unlike courtship and engagement, is when you find out what is really in that prettily wrapped box, under the tissue paper. Most married couples manage to get through the differences and compromise or agree to disagree. My husband and I are well beyond the stage of arguing about why we do things the way we do them. Except for one little thing that still raises its head from time to time: the color of milchig and fleishig items in our house.
When I went shopping as a kallah I bought things for my home to be according to my tastes and preferences. The colors I personally like were the colors that I chose for my kitchen. Enter marriage.
It still puzzles my husband why in our house red is for milchig and blue is for fleishig. As he has put it many times, "everyone" knows that red is the color of meat and that milk is blue. This last part has always stumped me. Were a student to write on a paper that milk is blue I, as the teacher, would have to wonder about said student's visual acuity. Okay, so meat is red? Well raw beef I suppose could be called red in color, but cooked beef is brown. And chicken is beige. Granted, blood is red, except when it isn't. (If fish have blood, then have you ever seen a flounder bleeding red?) And then there are those delicious fish that are red in color, such as salmon. And fish is not meat.
When I was very young our school took us on a trip to a dairy. In fact, they took us more than once. While there we got to pet the calves, but more importantly, we were given a chance to milk a cow. How many people today can say that they got up close and personal with a cow? I may not remember everything from when I was young, but I surely would have remembered if that cow would have given blue milk. A nice red hide on that cow and beautiful creamy white milk--red and white, perfect colors for milchig.
It's even stranger when you consider that my mother in law had neither red dishes and pots nor blue dishes or pots. Her colors were green and a flower pattern with pink flowers. Ever seen pink milk? Or green meat?
This has gotten complicated by the company that a few years ago started putting out color coded items for the kosher kitchen. They produce their items in three colors: blue, red and green. Each item comes with the word "meat," "dairy," or "pareve" on it. And yes, the red items are "meat," the blue items are "dairy," and the green items are "pareve." Any time that I buy one of these items I have to spend time covering the words up and putting the "correct" stickers on the cutting boards and knives.
I've eaten in a lot of homes over the years and I have seen a veritable rainbow of colors on those tables. Dishes in every hue and pattern imaginable. And yet, if you bring the conversation around to what colors designate milchig and what fleishig, you get a lot of my husband's answers coming out.
So what's your color? Are you a blue is milchigs person? Are you a blue is fleishigs person? Should it even make a difference? Please, someone prove to my husband that our house is not the exception to the rule of kosher colors.
47 comments:
It's called minhag. As far as I know, red and blue is the only minhag in place regarding colors of milchig and fleishig. Yes, it doesn't really mean anything (although red is the color of blood, obviously). And many people, including my husband, didn't grow up with that minhag and they think it is strange. But many people, like my mother, grew up with it.
Once a girl who was going out with my brother-in-law called me up to ask me whether I thought it was strange that people didn't know that red was fleishig and blue was milchig. I didn't answer her, my bil broke up with her anyway, but she wanted me to say that my husband also didn't grow up with the minhag.
The other minhag my mother taught me is to label milchig things, and leave fleishig unlabelled. (Pareve utensils? What are they?) This was because they rarely cooked with milk and needed many fewer milchig utensils.
I'm surprised at this post. I thought you were a big fan of minhagim.
Sorry, that was me.
Got to admit it - I grew up with red=fleishig and blue/yellow=milchig... and so it goes in my house. (And yep, green as in veggies is pareve). And never a pre-made label in sight.
Why blue is milchig? No idea - blue cheese anyone?
shoshana
The Rokeach kosher soap also came in red and blue.
Blue is easy to see, a primary color, and a strong contrast to red.
I always thought that blue and red were the universal colours for milchig and fleishig, respectively. It was that way in my home and that way in my yeshivah. I found it hugely disconcerting the first time I was in a house that had it in the opposite manner.
ProfK, your are the third household that I've heard of that holds contrary to, what appears to be, the pre-established norm. I guess that makes you unique.
"How many people today can say that they got up close and personal with a cow? I may not remember everything from when I was young, but I surely would have remembered if that cow would have given blue milk. A nice red hide on that cow and beautiful creamy white milk--red and white, perfect colors for milchig."
Was it a Haredi cow (Holstein) or a Modern Orthodox one (Jersey or other) ?
I did briefly milk a goat.
Okay, I see that in my haste to comment I goofed (as the klal goes, haste makes waste).
Obviously if it had a nice red hide it was MO. Holstein milk color would be somewhat different I guess, but I am not sure how much so.
Holstein is the leading dairy cow, Haredism dominates the dairy cow industry color-wise.
Is that why Haredi color schemes have become popular ? We are modeling ourselves on herds of cows ?
Growing up my mother explained it along light and dark lines. Dark colors were meat and light colors were dairy in our house. Our meat dishes had red and blue flowers on them and the dairy had light pinkand yellow flowers on them. All the pots were stainless steel so my mom carefully used a knife to carve an M for milchig into the dairy pot handles. And of course one of my kids turned one of her pots treif because she thought that M stood for meat.
It's a minhag for the red meat and blue dairy thing but it's more that people know it then they actually follow it. My meat dishes are black and white and my dairy are multi-colored flowers. And my MII still wonders how I can tell my meat from my dairy dishes when the colors are wrong.
Funny but my mom also told us that red was for meat and blue was for dairy but the actual colors in her kitchen weren't red and blue. They aren't in my kitchen either except for those things you mentioned that come with the words meat and dairy on them. And yes my husband had to adjust to new colors when we got married and it took a while. I finally labeled all my cabinets and drawers so he could find the right things.
It's strange that we call this a minhag because few people actually hold the minhag. How many people do you know who have red dishes for fleisch? Or red pots? Or even red anything? I asked my wife, who is the maven on who owns what color in our families. We are 7 brothers and sisters, all married, and not one has red dishes or anything red for fleisch. For Milchig, only one has a set of dishes with some blue on it. She also commented that among our friends the same is true.
So why do we hold onto this supposed minhag when it seems that we know what it is but no one follows it? Why do we even call it a minhag?
Chareidim as herds of cows--sounds about right. In Yiddish if you want to insult someones intelligence you call them a cow. Cows don't think for themselves but just follow the leader of the herd.
As mother said, red and blue are primary colors. While a white label would make more sense for milchig, it's not very visible.
You can think of it like this, meat is associated with blood, blood with anger, anger with red. The opposite of anger is peace. Sky and water are associated with peace and with blue.
As for green, vegetables are green.
Now here's an interesting thought, when you go to buy milk, do you buy the one that fleishig, milchig or parve? ;-)
We only cook milchig on Shavuot. I have one pot and one frying pan which are put away during the rest of the year. Everything else is meat/parve.
Moshe, you are refering to the colors of the caps on the cholov yisroel milk I guess. That's how my mother told us which milk to buy in the store--get the red milk, the blue milk or get the green milk. They need to change the cap colors if they want everyone to know that red is meat and green is parve. Maybe blue, yellow and white?
Just a question--are there any dishes made that are red? I remember shopping with my wife before we got married and I don't remember ever seeing any dishes or any pots either that would be clearly for meat because they were red.
ProfK dear, I do so hate to be critical of you, but this seems a terribly long way to go to prove that you are right (or at least that you are not wrong). And yes, I do realize that you probably were writing your post tongue in cheek, or at least I hope so.
I've seen a few dishes here and there Tuvi with some red on them but mostly it's not a color you see on dishes, except maybe in flowers.
My pots are black or gray or steel. My silverware is silver or steel colored. Mymixing bowls are steel or plastic, usually white or pale colors like yellow. My dishes are white and blue for meat and white and yellow for dairy. If this is a minhag then it's an old one that is not followed any more. Maybe it got started by someone who lived somewhere where there were blue pots and red pots available. Can't see any halachic reason for the red/blue.
Japanese lacquerware are red at least inside.
I have ramen bowls that I ordered from Japan and they're red on the inside and brown on the outside.
G,
Very tongue in cheek, but it still serves to point out a practice in the frum world that sometimes puzzles me. We defend to the death minhagim (or chumras) that we have no idea as to their origin, no idea as to why they are as they are, no halachic basis for, that we talk about more than practice, thus promulgating them for future generations without any idea as to why. The color "minhag" seems to have no rational basis and yet is one more thing that some people argue about.
And it sure beats getting depressed over the other bigger problems around. Even I need a break occasionally from the "weightier" issues that confront us.
If all you and your husband have to cheppe about are blue and red for meat and dairy then you are 1)married for a really long time 2)have an enviable marriage. It sure beats the your mother said conversations and the ones that start out with you spent how much?
Blue is milchig - definitely. Something to do with the color of the label on 1% milk?
Don't know, but they always seemed to go.
...though my mother has been known to use yellow sponges for milchigs and green for flaishigs, and pink for pareve. I don't claim to understand it, but never mess with a woman in her kitchen. And that includes yours.
profK: I can't believe you actually use those stupid stickers! You of all people! They are expensive and they come off. The real solution is to use nail polish. 3 bottles, $3 and a lifetime of labeling utensils.
Milk is blue because in Israel all the white cheeses come in blue containers (or is it the other way around?)
Rachel,
For some odd reason a few years ago the local Waldbaums and ShopRite were selling those stickers and utensils around Pesach time. After Pesach they went on sale for 25 cents a package to get rid of them. I'm still using them and have lots for the foreseeable future to come.
Should I ever run out, a package of blank sticky labels from Staples or the like can be used in my printer and I'll make my own up for way cheaper then the purchased kind.. My mom used the nail polish but way back then there was no blue polish so only red could be used or maybe pink. Not as useful if you want to label both kinds of dishes.
For most things we own today it's pretty irrelevant to argue about which color should be meat or dairy. The dishes are both very different from each other so it's easy to tell them apart. The pots are different too and so is the silverware. The problem is with the tons of storage containers you have in different sizes and shapes for meat dairy and pareve. Most of them come in exactly the same colors so you have to label them or you have problems. There some obvious color on them plus maybe the word written is helpful.
I bought stickers that are just solid colors that match up to my meat and dairy things and put those on the tops and bottoms of the containers.
In my home growing up, color coding/labeling would have been pretty stupid (my father is totally blind) so things went more by which side of the kitchen they were stored on, and nothing matched (by feel) exactly, and you were just supposed to know. I set up my first kitchen the exact same way, milchigs on the left of the sink and fleishigs on the right without even thinking about it. (Now the milchigs aren't really in the kitchen, so I have food on the left and fleishig dishes and pots on the right. Old habits die hard!)
Although, my mother did have placemats for meat (the table being dairy, and placemats for when she was feeling lazy and didn't want to pull out a tablecloth for 1) and they were blue because she liked blue. So when we bought brochos placemats for us kids, they came in red and blue -- therefore the red ones were dairy, because the blue ones were obviously fleishig. I didn't hear about the red vs blue thing already existing until I was a grown-up.
I still don't color code things, but my Pesach china *is* red. (Well, burgundy floral, because we liked it) and the kid plates (melamine or some other hard non-disposable plastic) are also red. But the year round stuff is white. My milchigs are paper, because we really don't use them much.
Blue is a cold color and red is a hot color. It's common for dairy to refrigerated, and it's common for meat to be cooked and served warm.
There is nothing remotely sacred or customary about how one color-codes utensils, just whatever makes sense to you. Red=meat, blue = dairy is the scheme one most often sees.
Although I agree with your husband, he is welcome to come more often if he'd like the colors reversed to his liking.
On the other hand, since he may wash and put dishes away, you may want to let him choose, although i suspect this topic is not up for discussion in the profk house anymore.
"...your husband is welcome to *cook* more often," i should have written
it's even more common for meat to be not only refrigerated, but also frozen.
And then there are meat COLD cuts and milk blintzes served HOT. I think whoever said that there cannot be a logical reason for the way we look at the two colors was right. You can come up with things to support every single opinion--none of it is fact. Which may be why profK is wondering why this whole thing should be a Jewish issue instead of just a personal difference between two people. What, you've never had an argument with someone that they can't win any other way so they finally pull out the trump card and say "but Jews are 'noheg' my way"?
We're blue for fleishig people also because it's my favorite color. Milchidige is sort of purple and pink. My husband couldn't care less as long as the food gets on the table on a plate.
For what it's worth - blame Rokach soap and the old enamel pans that were sold on the Lower East Side. The enamel pots had a red or blue line around the lid and the top of the pot, so they were easily identifiable.
For the record - Le Cruestet Pots come in practically every color.Pottery Barn and JC Penney's have red stoneware dishes. Many Italian stoneware patterns have red in them. china is fired at a higher temperature than stoneware and the red glaze tends to crack at high temperatures.
My house is somewhat traditional. Meat - orange or black, Dairy - blue or white. Parve is glass or yellow for spatulas and baking stuff.
So maybe the question to ask is why did you make blue for meat and read for dairy if you are aware that a lot of people say it should be the opposite and if your husband feels that way?
I never heard of this being a 'minhag' issue. Isn't it just personal preference? My mom had green for dairy, but I wasn't really a fan. I bought all white dishes and stainless steel silverware and my dish towels are black & white and sink rack is black. I bought dishes with a fruit pattern for meat, dish towels are red and sink rack is white. Pareve sink rack is stainless steel.
Then I moved in with roommates who had all different colors. But we manage. And I use a black sharpie to mark everything Meat, Dairy or Pareve.
I had to laugh about this post. My grandmother always says that there is nothing that Jews can't talk about. Dozens of comments and we are basically talking about something that is not really a minhag, is not observed by everyone and can change from one purchase of dishes to another. You certainly don't have to be matir neder when changing the dishes. It's all a personal choice, not something we need to go to daas Torah for to get an opinion.
I wonder what we could do if the discussion were about car colors, or maybe flower colors in a garden. Must be some old fake minhag we can dig up to cover those too.
Jake
My hubby can't say that he wasn't forewarned. My favorite color is definitely red. I wear it in clothing, I carried red roses to my chupah, my bridesmaids wore deep red velvet dresses, our first couch was red velvet, our first carpeting was red and black and the kitchen wallpaper in our apartment was red, white and blue. Red shows up all over my house. Red was going to be somewhere in my kitchen. My next favorite color is blue, but the shade known as cobalt or lapis lazuli. I fell in love with it thanks to Rosenthal china. My mother brought with her from Europe a bowl in the famous Rosenthal cobalt, white and gold. I loved that bowl. And then my aunt arrived from Europe and brought a dinner set in that cobalt and white which she used for Pesach for the sedorim and the meals. Since I am a little girl I associate fleishigs, and elegant fleishigs at that, with blue. And I made up my mind back then that someday I would have that cobalt blue in my fleishig dishes.
There's also this. Back in the "olden days" even Jewish girls and their mothers used to put away items towards when a girl got married. When I found an interesting set of dishes, octagonal shaped in cobalt blue, I bought it and put it away for what would be my fleishigs some day. That left me with red for milchigs.
Neither my mother nor my father had any minhag about colors and meat and dairy so it never passed on to me. I first heard about it after I was married. And as I said, my mother in law may have known about the custom some had but she didn't follow it in her own colors.
Frankly, I don't think my hubby cares about the colors so much as he is used to kvetching about them every once in a while. As proof--when he gave kiddush in shule last year, a fleishig kiddush, he went shopping for the paper goods by himself. And he bought blue plates, not red.
You wear red clothing? Brave person. You are clearly an out of towner.
I wouldn't deliberately buy red for meat and blue for milk. However, I would stay away from using blue for meat or red for milk to avoid confusing people who are used to the labels and stuff (especially if you happen to live with one. Though, one point for ProfK, I'd dare to guess that when you went shopping as a kallah the red/blue thing was probably not such a big inyan yet, especially since the labels are a newer innovation)
I am also a BIG fan of labeling everything! At the very least, you're more likely to get help in the kitchen if you make it easy for potential helpers...
I was going to say what Bas Melech just said. It really doesn't matter which colors you use, but if you use red for milk and blue for meat you really have to be careful that no one traifs up your kitchen because they expected it to be the opposite, "usual" way.
My mom has four kids and not one of us has the same kitchen colors, but we never expected to have to have them. My mom never used the blue for dairy red for meat rule. When she comes to visit with us if she doesn't know which is which she asks. Everyone in my house knows which it is, and who else really cooks or serves here but us? I'm thinking this has more to do with some manufacturer looking to make a buck then any kind of real connection of the colors to meat or dairy.
It may or may not be a minhag, and it might even be a minhag yisrael :-) Why? Because the IDF uses that convention! Besari pots have a bit of red spray painted on them, and Chalavi pots have a bit of blue spray painted on them. This is to help ensure kashrut in the army kitchens. In some small bases, and field bases, kashrut is very hard to maintain properly. Many years ago, while serving in the IDF, I was part of a unit moving from Yericho to just outside Yericho, and we (the 4 or 5 frum people) requested new pots and pans so we could have kosher food. They sent us new pots and pans almost immediately and we also received instructions to paint a little red on the Besari ones and paint a little blue on the Chalavi ones. That base, because it wasn't yet built up, only had a field kitchen (some pots and 2 or 3 outside burners), but that small field kitchen sure was kosher. But you can bet that we would try to drive into Yerushalaim as often as possible to get some better food, or at least to buy some decent ingredients to cook with. Eating Naknikyot (small, not very tasty frankfurters) for dinner, and shakshuka for breakfast almost every day got quite boring. A few of us ended up purchasing a hibachi grill and some charcoal and our Argentinian friend would grill up some chicken for us (using only a little salt as a condiment), and boy was that chicken good! Enough rambling from me.
Mark
It may be that it has grown from (or maybe grown into and been reinforced from) the fact that that is the code used in industrial kashrut situations. I was the mashgichah for a camp kitchen last summer, and my first day on the job involved dragging all new utensils, and any where the paint was wearing off, and spraying them with blue or red spray paint on the bottom, so there'd be no guessing or confusion.
Mark and Debka-notion,
Some interesting facts coming out about major users of the colors. I suppose my question is, given that dishware comes in such a multiplicity of hues and people across the world own dishes in a rainbow of colors, why aren't we using something other than color to mark what is milk and meat? I realize that using English alphabet letters wouldn't work, since the roman letters are not universal, but why not a symbol, such as the universal "stop" that is recognized all over the world? A symbol would also eliminate any confusion for those with any degree of color blindness.
Picture of a bull's head for meat and cow's head for milk.
I always though it was tied to the fact that, generally speaking, meat needs to be cooked (fire=red) and dairy needs to be cooled (cold=blue).
I think the symbol idea is a good one and would work better to eliminate any confusion then the colors do. Not only could it be used on dishes and pots in kitchens but it could also be put onto products as an added reinforcement to the D that follows a hechsher and is sometimes overlooked.
I think the cow and the bull could be too easily confused for each other. Maybe a chicken for meat? An icecream cone for milk? You need two clearly different symbols.
Sorry, you need three symbols, with one for pareve. Maybe an apple or a carrot there?
rochelle, cow and bull were a joke.
Which brings me to another "joke".
We were in Prospect Park Zoo, my son was 1 and half then. We go into the petting zoo, he looks at the cow and says "mooo". Hassidish looking woman w kids comes in, looks at the cow and tells her kids, "Look, it's a horse!"
Lol Moshe, that fits in with another old joke. A teacher asks her students where milk comes from. One young man answers: "a bottle."
And here's another.
Next time we're there, we stop by the red panda exhibit. Another one of those well read and educated mothers comes over. She looks at the panda, looks at the billboard fact sheet, looks at the panda, looks at the biggest word on the billboard and proudly announces, "It's an Asia!"
No lady, Asia is a continent. Do you know what a continent is? Can you name a few? Do you know where Asia is on a map? How about North America? Can you even read English after living here all your life.
I liked the symblo idea so I made it into a project with my kids. We searched on the clip art sites to find the symbols we liked and then I got some of those blank clear labels and we printed them up on the computer. Used plain black printing but the symbol is obvious. We used a hot dog in a bun for meat, borrowed the ice cream cone idea from here and then used an ear of corn for pareve. Had a lot of fun with the kids in choosing and then they all helped to label everything. Even put the labels on the drawers and shelves so no one makes a mistake.
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