tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post4899702980751289700..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: What is a Degree Worth?--part #2ProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-30726156634632782622009-01-04T15:54:00.000-05:002009-01-04T15:54:00.000-05:00Sigh Mark,Let me broaden the statement you take ex...Sigh Mark,<BR/>Let me broaden the statement you take exception to. Broad exposure to thinkers and thoughts of other disciplines needs to include the past as well as the present, and the University is the perfect place for studying the history of other disciplines. You need to know what was and what is before you can go on to what will be. It's a truism but apt nonetheless: those who do not study history--all history, not just their little corner of it, are doomed to repeat it.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-42603506367267772662009-01-04T02:55:00.000-05:002009-01-04T02:55:00.000-05:00Training and study in one discipline and one disci...<I>Training and study in one discipline and one discipline only can lead to a myopic vision of what the world is and how it works. Obviously we need doctors to be highly proficient in medical studies. But we also need to remember that doctors don't only treat diseases; they treat patients.<BR/><BR/>Doctors, and others in college, need broad exposure to the thinkers and thoughts of other disciplines. <B>They need exposure to what the world in total is like.</B></I><BR/><BR/>In that case, the University would be the worst place for them to get this exposure!<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-40591312406980990402009-01-04T00:30:00.000-05:002009-01-04T00:30:00.000-05:00"CUNY had (don't know if it is still in existence)..."CUNY had (don't know if it is still in existence) a 7 year program for the BS/MD in the public health medicine field. The same for Johns Hopkins."<BR/><BR/>I believe that Brown does as well. There are a few other programs that are similar, but I don't remember them off the top of my head.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-39089945203544172022009-01-03T20:30:00.000-05:002009-01-03T20:30:00.000-05:00"I also think that going to med school is the type..."I also think that going to med school is the type of thing that it better to go into with a couple more years of maturity under your belt"<BR/><BR/>certain health programs in israel require applicans to be 20 years old. i think i read recently that this is being challenged now in the courts by arabs (most don't serve in the army and this means they have to wait a few years after high school)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-30651054978935918812009-01-03T19:37:00.000-05:002009-01-03T19:37:00.000-05:00ProfK,For what it's worth I know someone who c...ProfK,<BR/>For what it's worth I know someone who completed a BTLat a yeshiva, then took required pre-med courses at a state university (as evening classes, so he could still attend yeshiva). He was accepted at & completed medical studies at a well-regarded med school. He's mentioned that most schools were not concerned about his BTL, maybe because of his MCAT scores. I know this is only one anecdote, but I just wanted to say it's possible though unusual to do this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-24389865367865677152009-01-02T13:05:00.000-05:002009-01-02T13:05:00.000-05:00Ah I see, thanks.Ah I see, thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-25121276993454810302009-01-02T12:44:00.000-05:002009-01-02T12:44:00.000-05:00KT,CUNY had (don't know if it is still in existenc...KT,<BR/>CUNY had (don't know if it is still in existence) a 7 year program for the BS/MD in the public health medicine field. The same for Johns Hopkins. I do remember that the requirements to get into the program were very stringent. Not everyone who wanted an "education shortcut" was going to be accepted.<BR/><BR/>Of course you are correct that college doesn't have to take 4 years. But to shorten the time requires taking more credits per term and taking summer courses. Those who are working while going to school may not have the time for this type of acceleration. And it also takes a highly motivated and organized student, not to mention a "fast" study, to take an accelerated course. My objection is not to students of this ilk; it is to the diploma mills that offer forshortened degrees to anyone. It is to those who claim that a one-year BA equates to a 4-year BA in every way.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-45706926201754875922009-01-02T12:28:00.000-05:002009-01-02T12:28:00.000-05:00*But I'd have to check if one can really shorten p...*But I'd have to check if one can really shorten premed to 3 yrs*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-1189744609251300332009-01-02T12:22:00.000-05:002009-01-02T12:22:00.000-05:00(I was the Anonymous. Too lazy to sign into my acc...(I was the Anonymous. Too lazy to sign into my account.)<BR/><BR/>Well here's the thing. I agree. Future med students probably don't need to take Music Appreciation and all that stuff in college. And I know some people knew since HS that they wanted to be in medicine and so they were able to shorten their time in undergrad by bulking up in science. <BR/><BR/>We all have a choice. It's not B&W. You don't have to do 4 years in undergrad (if you plan it right).<BR/><BR/>The liberal arts reqs aren't that high I believe. Of course one has the option to *choose* to take a lot of they like.<BR/><BR/>I also think that going to med school is the type of thing that it better to go into with a couple more years of maturity under your belt; i.e. 22 instead of 18Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-19607286458367017352009-01-02T10:08:00.000-05:002009-01-02T10:08:00.000-05:00ProfK, I did not suggest eliminating ALL liberal a...ProfK, <BR/><BR/>I did not suggest eliminating ALL liberal arts requirements for doctors, lawyers, etc. Obviously, no one wants to be treated by a narrow-minded individual. However, I do not see why someone who has decided to become a doctor can't go straight to medical school, where the school will decide which liberal arts are necessary for a well-rounded physcian. (It is hard to imagine that medical schools would omit psychology, mathematics, courses in ethics and law.) By the way, even now many colleges (prestigous among them) reduce liberal arts load on certain majors due to the heavy course load of those majors' requirements. It is done now, and I don't think those who miss out on a few sociology courses are any less well rounded than other students. <BR/><BR/>In addition, it is kind of ridiculous to me that history, english, writing, literature and geography have to be taught in college. I might be talking from a perspective of someone receiving European high school education, but those should all be done with there.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-63790204610337985472009-01-02T07:46:00.000-05:002009-01-02T07:46:00.000-05:00SubWife and Anonymous,Training and study in one di...SubWife and Anonymous,<BR/>Training and study in one discipline and one discipline only can lead to a myopic vision of what the world is and how it works. Obviously we need doctors to be highly proficient in medical studies. But we also need to remember that doctors don't only treat diseases; they treat patients. <BR/><BR/> Doctors, and others in college, need broad exposure to the thinkers and thoughts of other disciplines. They need exposure to what the world in total is like. To understand a patient and all that impinges on that patient's life you need to know more than bacteria X is killed by antibiotic Y. To treat a patient "correctly" they need to be able to communicate what is going on in language intelligible to that patient (English and Speech), need to assess the costs to the patient, both monetarial and mental (Economics, Mathematics, Psychology), assess what society will find acceptable or unacceptable (Civics, History), be capable of navigating the vast regulatory beauracracy (Logics, Law, Political Science)and understand the patient's societal connections, which will affect how or when or even what type of care will be accepted by the patient (Anthropology, Sociology, Cultural Studies, Geography). They need to be able to think out of the box that is their own narrow discipline when solutions aren't forthcoming through utilizing their own way of thinking.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-22018753099755866672009-01-01T20:30:00.000-05:002009-01-01T20:30:00.000-05:00Anonymous, I agree. the more training for doctors...Anonymous, I agree. the more training for doctors, the better. But training in what? Sociology/theology/music appreciation/literature? Because that's what they largely learn in the first two years of undergraduate school. Why not send them directly to medical school for six years, the way it is done in many European countries? Here, I do not know anyone who had less than four years of undergraduate studies before being able to apply to med school. And for the first two years, they mostly took liberal arts.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-30457653038731768572009-01-01T19:34:00.000-05:002009-01-01T19:34:00.000-05:00Med school is 4 years.Pharmacy school is 4 years. ...Med school is 4 years.<BR/><BR/>Pharmacy school is 4 years. <BR/><BR/>The very, very least minimum undergrad for those is 2 years I believe, but for med school suually at leats 3.<BR/><BR/>Basically, doctors have our highest amount of trust/honor on their shoulders. The more training, the better. <BR/><BR/>Period.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-50198038475960502882009-01-01T10:58:00.000-05:002009-01-01T10:58:00.000-05:00regarding the discussion above about the board of ...regarding the discussion above about the board of ed sending staff into religious schools: when i dropped off my son today i remembered that there are 2 (3?) kids in his class who have SEITs ("shadows"). i am pretty sure the SEITs are paid for the board of ed . . . and they sit *in* the classroomLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-39499817974231510362009-01-01T10:14:00.000-05:002009-01-01T10:14:00.000-05:00Parts of the frum olam still think that working is...Parts of the frum olam still think that working is somethiing someone else should do. So they are being forced to go and get a job. The shortcut programs make sense when you look at who is taking them. For the most part it's the group that doesn't want to work to begin with. And that includes the women. My niece believes that she should be at home not working and raising her kids by herself. But she also believes that her husband has to sit and learn as long as possible. So she is stuck working. Her answer was also to take one of those Israel based courses. She was looking to put in as little effort as possible. And she is getting nowhere near the amount of monetary return on her school investment that she thought she would. But then you can't have things both ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-76956427131449590862009-01-01T09:32:00.000-05:002009-01-01T09:32:00.000-05:00nmf#7, you make a good point. It's helpful to kno...nmf#7, you make a good point. It's helpful to know what you plan to do with your degree while you're still in school, so you can choose your courses accordingly. What's a degree in Science? I recall majors such as Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc., but not a generic "Science".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-6334292815716762122009-01-01T09:22:00.000-05:002009-01-01T09:22:00.000-05:00Wow, after reading this, I'm glad I went to Touro ...Wow, after reading this, I'm glad I went to Touro and got a degree that's recognized, intead of one of the quicker programs that may or may not have worked out. <BR/>Although, I do agree with the poster about the European degree system. I got a degree in Science, and now when applying for graduate school, I wish I had even more credits towards my major than what I got. If we had more focused BA's then there would be no need for graduate school just to get a job.nmf #7https://www.blogger.com/profile/02930286227301917330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-62324630056815082502009-01-01T00:40:00.000-05:002009-01-01T00:40:00.000-05:00Oh sheesh. I just wrote a long, intelligent commen...Oh sheesh. I just wrote a long, intelligent comment and Blogger lost it. :-P Time for bed...<BR/><BR/>(Briefly, my point was that life is not always fair and logical, and mill-diplomas can work nicely for many people, especially if they know important people or have a lot of initiative. And that I agree that BA's are basically superfluous)Bas~Melechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01511197551248863790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-30805193344997424432008-12-31T16:52:00.000-05:002008-12-31T16:52:00.000-05:00Lion,I have been asking the same question again an...Lion,<BR/><BR/>I have been asking the same question again and again. Why should it take seven years to become a lawyer, a minimum of 11 to become a doctor, 6 to become a therapist, etc? It is way too long, and for the first 2-4 years of their education, they hardly learn anything useful in their chosen fields. While I still believe there are some liberal courses required for all majors in European universities, the emphasis is much less on them. Mostly one learns subjects relating to their majors.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-42070851897580938922008-12-31T16:26:00.000-05:002008-12-31T16:26:00.000-05:00Lion,Regents accreditation basically boils down to...Lion,<BR/>Regents accreditation basically boils down to a school's being state approved to offer a New York state high school diploma. It means that the school offers at least the minimum of the types of courses that the state requires and that it is allowed to give Regents exams--necessary for the diploma. There are top notch private schools in the city which are not Regents accredited. Their curriculum, and when and how it is administered, is superior to that of the public school system. Their graduates get a diploma which has the school's name on it, not the State's. Regent's accreditation has nothing to do with how good a school is--those public high schools on the State and City "failing" list are all Regents accredited high schools.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-34738061933156036352008-12-31T16:10:00.000-05:002008-12-31T16:10:00.000-05:00oops, i just missed your comment.oops, i just missed your comment.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-38352809602750854232008-12-31T16:09:00.000-05:002008-12-31T16:09:00.000-05:00PROFK:what does it mean if a high school is regent...PROFK:<BR/><BR/>what does it mean if a high school is regents accredited?<BR/><BR/>i will assume that that many (most?) year-abroad programs are not that serious, but still, at least there is some structure (?) and something on paper to give credits for. <BR/><BR/>i still don't think it's fair to compare england to america. maybe i should have referred to picking a course of study rather than a major. but regarding the the lit. curriculum you pasted, it is not at all as variegated as what would be required in an american school; and as i've already said, philosphy/history coursework is relevant to a lit major. an oxford student is basically spending almost the entire 3 years of college studing literature or courses that bear on it. in america, lit. requires 30 (maybe 40 credits in some situtations), i.e., only one year is spent "mastering" the subject and three years is wasted with electives and core requirement.<BR/><BR/>take a look instead at the law degree. what's the difference between someone who gets a BTL and gets into law school and someone in england who goes strait from high school into law school? what exactly about going to college for 4 years first makes american lawyers any better?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-23171628805097233942008-12-31T16:07:00.000-05:002008-12-31T16:07:00.000-05:00Lion,Sigh, and that brings us right back to the ve...Lion,<BR/>Sigh, and that brings us right back to the very real problems with so many public and yeshiva high schools here.<BR/><BR/>Re the European system, they are very clear that university is not for everyone, nor that it should be. Peruse listings of what the British call colleges and you see many more technical/trade schools than you see in the US. Our egalitarianism here in the US has brought some true benefits that are missing in many parts of Europe, but it has also brought us the messy college condition we have. Why do so many diploma mills flourish here that aren't seen in this great an abundance elsewhere? Because we've bought into the idea that college is for everybody. Since it isn't true, the diploma mills have a built-in customer base. You simply did not see or hear of these mills when I was in college.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-5191616749418078052008-12-31T15:47:00.000-05:002008-12-31T15:47:00.000-05:00JS:"Not quite sure what your point is."i'm not sur...JS:<BR/><BR/>"Not quite sure what your point is."<BR/><BR/>i'm not sure anymore either. i was originally throwing out some devil's advocate arguments, but i think i might have convinced myself.<BR/><BR/>to clarify: i think that someone should get the best training they can in their particular field. so no, i certainly don't approve of the diploma mills that provide the actual professional degree for OTs/PTs.<BR/><BR/>but i'm really starting to question the value of the BA. in general i think it serves one of 3 purposes:<BR/>1) it gives luftmenschen a chance to figure out what they want to do with their lives.<BR/>2) it gives a chance to those of us who slept through HS to catch up<BR/>3) it serves as a weeding out process for grad schools.<BR/><BR/>but ideally we should have the european system where are the above 3 are satisfied in the high school years.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-6307108372195286622008-12-31T14:49:00.000-05:002008-12-31T14:49:00.000-05:00Lion,the Oxford curriculum was in reference to you...Lion,<BR/>the Oxford curriculum was in reference to your statement that in European colleges "you pick a "major" and that's all you study." The prerequisites clearly show that that is not all you study.<BR/><BR/>Re high school accreditation, the requirements are different for high schools than for colleges. And there are more accreditation associations that are involved with high school accreditation. So far as I know in Brooklyn only Shulamit and Flatbush were Middle States accredited at one time--I don't know their status right now.<BR/><BR/>No, you are correct, not all divisions of Touro are "equal," but they were never intended to be. Machon l'Parnoseh comes to mind. But no one at Touro, including the students, equates Machon to the various Lander colleges. <BR/><BR/>Re the psych course, I'm appalled, truly. That is not representative of the regular types of teachers that are hired. You need a MA minimum to teach in my department, and a number of those are adjuncts rather than full-time tenured instructors.Plenty of us either in grad school in PhD programs or who already have a PhD. Our chair has her PhD with honors from Columbia. <BR/><BR/>Re the accepting yeshiva credits, this morphed out of the "year abroad" programs that most schools accept for credit. What started out with equating a seminary/yeshiva year of study in Israel to other year abroad programs somehow has changed into accepting yeshiva credits earned here. It also stems from the "life experience" credits that many colleges started accepting. Do I think all this playing around is good for the education our younger generations are getting? Hell no!ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.com