tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post4566326477939725685..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: On Planned IgnoranceProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-66230573552189243852012-02-21T22:05:03.501-05:002012-02-21T22:05:03.501-05:00I don't have to worry so much until next year ...I don't have to worry so much until next year when my son is in 8th grade. My wife is nervous because I'm promising to start each interview for HS with <br />"Why should I let YOU have the privilege of teaching him?"Lakewood Falling Downhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483392684657880997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-64934142250593427482012-02-21T13:39:35.671-05:002012-02-21T13:39:35.671-05:00i heard recently on the news about a proposal to m...i heard recently on the news about a proposal to make it mandatory to remain in school until 12th grade (or 18 y/o?)<br /><br />just to point out, very often 12th grade is to a certain extent a waste, particularly the second semester (acceptance letters have been mailed, senioritis, etc.). hence the year in israel used to be the second semester of 12th grade.abba's rantingshttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-59340653686633928062012-02-20T16:47:22.993-05:002012-02-20T16:47:22.993-05:00Is it really only the boys yeshivas that are givin...Is it really only the boys yeshivas that are giving less secular education? What about the girl's schools? And if the girl's schools are giving all the senior year courses, why is that secular education okay for them but not the boys? <br /><br />I'm thinking that maybe it's not so much secular education that the boy's schools are against as much as them wanting to give the boys lots more Jewish studies.Yonanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-59119800303990942662012-02-20T12:53:18.292-05:002012-02-20T12:53:18.292-05:00miami al,
you are really oversimplifying things. w...miami al,<br />you are really oversimplifying things. when one is shomer shabbos and shomer kashrut no matter what you label yourself- yeshivish, modern orthodox or chassidush you are VERY different than reform jews. trust me. i grew on left wing modern orthodox in the midwest. it is only easier for the modern orthodox to be less religious because they do not dress as differently as the chassidim do and they probably had a better secular education. even in the midwest you get the same party line about how secular society is so bad and everyone in public school is on drugs. <br />if you stop keeping shabbos it is no so simple . if you stop keeping kosher it feels foreign. the mores of secular society is very different if you are secular than if you are othodox.frum single femalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592899863773572708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-83276425316419255482012-02-20T10:54:38.346-05:002012-02-20T10:54:38.346-05:00JS,
Disagree, the RW is more likely to rebel, and...JS,<br /><br />Disagree, the RW is more likely to rebel, and historically have.<br /><br />The MO don't need to rebel, they just drift... You just slide into the LW, switch your observance to more social (i.e. go to Shul, don't carry your phone, work from home Saturday afternoon, etc), the schools don't ask about the home life because they can't.<br /><br />The RW crowd NEEDS to rebel to get anywhere. A MO Jew that takes off his Kippa is relatively indistinguishable from a Reform Jew in that regard, almost all MO Jews have Americanized names that they use. They speak standard "white English" even with silly expressions like "eat by" thrown in.<br /><br />If you can't afford tuition, you have fewer kids... I know plenty of LWMO families with 2 kids, 3 is increasingly a lot, 4+ is unheard of. It's way easier to keep the social part you like and ditch the restrictions you don't in the MO world.<br /><br />I'm not saying most LWMO families aren't observant, I have no idea. I'm saying that LWMO families that don't want to be observant but like to be quasi-observant can do so, with little problems.<br /><br />I don't think they'll be a blinking.<br /><br />The only interesting thing to me, if the Hebrew language charters keep gaining traction in the Israeli population, is if there will be a regrowth of the traditional middle... 50 years ago that was the core of Orthodoxy, 20 years ago the core of Conservative Jewry, now it's been wiped out, you either flip out or go OTD, it will be interesting to see if it returns.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-47395469962754114792012-02-20T10:13:20.478-05:002012-02-20T10:13:20.478-05:00I'll just add that eventually it will come tim...I'll just add that eventually it will come time to pay the piper. You can't have an absurdly expensive religion that makes it next to impossible for the next generation to afford that absurdly expensive religion.<br /><br />It may be more apparent in the RW world where they're actively denying their children a secular education, but the same problem exists across Orthodoxy for different reasons.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see who blinks first in this game of chicken - I'm betting the MO. The RW schools are cheaper and the population is much less likely to rebel.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-83094443455888627532012-02-20T10:10:21.242-05:002012-02-20T10:10:21.242-05:00tesyaa,
The attitude that a frum "learner&qu...tesyaa,<br /><br />The attitude that a frum "learner" is more capable than his secularly educated peer is a real disease in the community. I don't doubt that these frum boys are very smart - in any population you're going to have very smart people and, who knows, maybe we do have a larger proportionate share of smart kids. But, intelligence alone can only get you so far.<br /><br />I see lots of frum boys with mediocre secular education and no, what I'll call for lack of a better term, secular social skills - getting along in the "outside world." Maybe they do excellently on the LSAT or even the MCAT, but only a very small percentage can overcome the setbacks of their educational background. The "real world" is about a lot more than these stupid entrance exams.<br /><br />I'm not saying people from these communities don't succeed. Some do. But they do it in spite of their background, not because of it. And they rely on other frum people giving them help and assistance along the way - a frum partner giving the person a chance, a frum doctor giving guidance. If that support network dwindles it will be even more difficult.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-50777771011787857042012-02-20T10:04:43.993-05:002012-02-20T10:04:43.993-05:00Allen,
I think you're too hopeful. They'...Allen,<br /><br />I think you're too hopeful. They'll find their own people to give expert opinions. The flock just follows, they don't actually care if it makes scientific or medical sense. And I'm not just saying that about the more RW - just look at electricity. It was poorly understood when the technology emerged so the consensus became "ban it" even though the reasons were lousy and some more "with it" rabbis like Shlomo Zalman Auerbach wanted to allow many uses on Shabbos.<br /><br />It's a lot easier to ban than to allow. In fact, I'd say people tend to prefer it. It makes them feel like they're sacrificing for Hashem and that's bound to make Him happy.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-5732073211283711232012-02-20T08:29:54.841-05:002012-02-20T08:29:54.841-05:00Also leaves us with a strange situation that the f...Also leaves us with a strange situation that the frummier schools haven't yet figured out. When the majority of experts in the science and technical fields are going to be coming from the MO sector, then those are the people rabbanim are going to have to contact to get any info when they have to give a psak dealing with those areas. It's their blessing and their curse.<br /><br />If they are going to use these experts then they have to keep MO alive so they have people with knowledge to use as sources. If they don't use these experts then you end up with the mess they had about Shabbos elevators just a little while ago, and their ignorance and the psak given based on that ignorance was brought out for everyone to see.Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-45927166236664779632012-02-20T07:59:40.493-05:002012-02-20T07:59:40.493-05:00Once upon a time, the frum community prided itself...<i>Once upon a time, the frum community prided itself on the knowledge and brightness of its students in the secular studies arena.</i><br /><br />At some point, people forgot that this level of achievement came about through excellent education and began to think if was inherent in every "frum" boy. Many people realize their sons are receiving a subpar education, but they think their kids are smart enough to "make up the work on their own". I often hear about kids who plan to take the AP exams without taking the actual class. I don't know how many actually do and what their level of exam success is.<br /><br />Sure, a few kids may be sufficiently smart and motivated to succeed without a proper high school education, but most are not.tesyaanoreply@blogger.com