tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post1686855838493898746..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: On Sexual Abuse and Denial in the CommunityProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82941406813665262822009-12-17T00:16:26.598-05:002009-12-17T00:16:26.598-05:00Hope the interest in fixing the sexual abuse/moles...Hope the interest in fixing the sexual abuse/molestation hasn't been held up by the economic recession of late. <br />I can't iterate this enough. The majority of abuse is perpetrated by family members/close family friends! This means that a parent/sibling etc. is the abuser. Many times the other spouse/parents will turn a blind eye- because of fear, shame, comfort in present life, etc. <br />That is why the protection of children should take a multi-pronged approach! <br />1) Parents<br />2) Educators/Rabbis/Leaders<br />3) Neighbors, and friends. Wider social network.<br />Anyone exposed to children should be mandated to take courses in recognizing and reporting child abuse/molestation. That means: parents, day-care workers, teachers, social workers, principals, Rabbis, after-school program workers, and ideally- anyone in the community who speaks to even one child.<br />The idea is to prevent abuse from escalating. All too often, a child is abused for the first time, sends out warning signs. If these warning signs are not seen, and the child isn't protected/given therapy to heal- the effect deepens, and we have severe trauma. <br />Ultimately, the more we as a community talk openly about these issues, we give the abusers less place to hide and continue in their misdeeds. Conversely, supporting the victims breaks down the culture of protecting evil for the sake of dubious halacha (being moser, loshon hara, shidduchim, etc).Estinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-77971750165177093212008-09-20T18:45:00.000-04:002008-09-20T18:45:00.000-04:00The most important reason to report sex offenders ...The most important reason to report sex offenders is precisely because of the NIMBY syndrome.<BR/><BR/>Anything other than arrest and incarceration simply removes the offender from one community to another.<BR/><BR/>Sex offenders do not change, they do not stop molesting kids, they are dangerous.<BR/><BR/>We often "know the family" and don't want to hurt the "innocent" members of the family. In so doing, we endanger other innumerable innocent kids.<BR/><BR/>This is the meaning of the saying<BR/>"He who is compassionate to the cruel will ultimately be cruel to the compassionate."<BR/>Midrash Tanchuma, Metzora 1;<BR/>Yalkut Shimoni, I Shmuel 121<BR/><BR/>If we are going to be serious, as a community, about sex offenders, we need to bring charges against them. Sex offenders need to be registered. We need to know who are our neighbors. We need to be able to protect our kids. <BR/><BR/>Zero Tollerance.RivkA with a capital Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09411034058195730044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-5610867299337180182008-09-16T07:46:00.000-04:002008-09-16T07:46:00.000-04:00I think Lion you answered your own question. Your...I think Lion you answered your own question. Your rebbe invited groups of you for Shabbos. I'll assume he was married with kids too. I also assume you shared a room with your fellow classmates. Not much chance of any private enclosed time in his house. And you were in 11th grade making you older and maybe a little wiser about anything that might be inappropriate. My son also went to his rebbe's house for a Shabbos and also with a group of boys. I wouldn't have sent him all by himself though. Maybe not so much with possible abuse in mind but just the awkwardness of being a complete stranger to everybody at the table but the rebbe. It's a really sad note on today's crazy world that we have to worry about why a rebbe might be paying special attention to our kids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-9026157117754776452008-09-15T19:40:00.000-04:002008-09-15T19:40:00.000-04:00KNITTER:the school i went to didn't exactly encour...KNITTER:<BR/><BR/>the school i went to didn't exactly encourage the rebbe-student relationship. (actually, i didn't even know what a "rebbe" was until much later. we had a morah or moreh, who might have been a rabbi). but my gemara teacher in 11th grade (who was a really nice guy), did try to have a relationship with us and he would even invite groups of us to his home for shabbat. so where does something like this fit into the open door policy?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-2095136218626222102008-09-15T15:42:00.000-04:002008-09-15T15:42:00.000-04:00Both of the universities I've attended have a poli...Both of the universities I've attended have a policy that when students and teachers meet, the office door always stays open. The gender of the people involved doesn't matter, you're just always supposed to have the door open.<BR/><BR/>It would be nice if the yeshivot could institute something like that, though of course it won't prevent people from closing the doors, but at least it would be a standard, and the student might be able to tell that something is amiss.Knitter of shiny thingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10495339297497300925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-60987968058041049922008-09-15T02:58:00.000-04:002008-09-15T02:58:00.000-04:00The Shulchan Arukh Choshen Mishpat 388:12 states t...The Shulchan Arukh Choshen Mishpat 388:12 states that it is permitted to inform on one who is a menace to the public.<BR/>Rabbi Yechiel Michal Epstein (1829-1907) argues that the prohibition against informing on another fellow Jew only applies when a corrupt and dishonest government is involved. (Aruch Hashulchan 388:7).<BR/>Rabbi Eliezer Yehudah Waldenberg (1915-2006), following Epstein, rules on the permissibiity, indeed responsibility, to report child abuse. (<I>Tzitz Eliezer</I> 19:52)<BR/>All this was found in the 26 October issue of The Jewish Chronicle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-69299558046256602972008-09-14T14:13:00.000-04:002008-09-14T14:13:00.000-04:00DANI:"didn't extend much beyond 40 if that long"ar...DANI:<BR/><BR/>"didn't extend much beyond 40 if that long"<BR/><BR/>are you sure that this is true once you remove infant and young child deaths as statistical outliers?<BR/><BR/>regarding the rest of my comment, i think you were reading too much into it?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-79991356403749331342008-09-14T13:00:00.000-04:002008-09-14T13:00:00.000-04:00Lion,My great grandmother, born in the late 1800s ...Lion,<BR/>My great grandmother, born in the late 1800s or thereabouts, was first married when she was 12. And her husband was 15-16. Of course, life expectancy for married women in that time period didn't extend much beyond 40 if that long. Nor did men live all that long. Dying in childbirth or of childbirth related issues was fairly common. So yes, it would seem that puberty was also marriage time, and 12 year olds weren't "little girls." They were already through more than a quarter of their expected lives.<BR/><BR/> You cannot say the same today. First, here in the US, no twelve-year-old can get legally married. Which "normal" person in the US would consider a twelve-year-old as an adult, particularly as regards sexual relations? And if a twelve-year-old is not a legal adult then for sure those younger are nowhere near being adults.<BR/><BR/>So the concept of statutory rape as we know it does not YET exist in halacha, because those it would apply to were, back then, adults, not children. But the situation is vastly different today. It's not like the gedolei yisroel haven't come up with halachic requirements in response to other "modern" developments--why ignore this one? Show me a godol living today who married off his daughter at 12. <BR/><BR/>And if those who prey on young children do so because in Talmudic times those kids were adults, then they are even sicker then I thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-5100379887262340962008-09-14T12:03:00.000-04:002008-09-14T12:03:00.000-04:00MALKA and RISSA:(disclaimer: card-carrying עם הארץ...MALKA and RISSA:<BR/><BR/>(disclaimer: card-carrying עם הארץ writing here)<BR/><BR/>the specific biblical injunction in ויקרא against male-male relations may only involve specific acts of penetration. inappropriate touching alone or other acts may not constitute a technical violation?<BR/><BR/>regarding inappropriate relations with minor girls (although the vast majority of the allegations seem to involve men with boys?), the concept of statutory rape as we know it does not exist in הלכה.<A HREF="http://agmk.blogspot.com/2008/07/settler-parental-neglect-and-sephardic.html" REL="nofollow"><BR/>there is nothing wrong, for example, with a 12-year old girl marrying a 32-year old man.<BR/></A><BR/><BR/>PROFK:<BR/><BR/>off topic here, but i was being sarcastic about the attention being given agunot. i guess it didn't come across well.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-34517741736522605082008-09-14T11:48:00.000-04:002008-09-14T11:48:00.000-04:00I'd be interested in hearing some halacha too. We...I'd be interested in hearing some halacha too. We've been hearing about "moser" and "lashan horah" in regards to the abusers but with all the other mentions of forbidden sexual relations surely there has to be at least one mention of an adult and a child? At the very least shouldn't the laws of yichud apply as something that schools should be insisting upon? Although that wouldn't cover a rebbi and his male student, but wouldn't Vayikra cover this where male-male sexual relations are considered an abomination? For any other discussion of a serious topic the psukim would be flying all over the place. Why not with this issue?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-78762028670099904112008-09-14T09:53:00.000-04:002008-09-14T09:53:00.000-04:00A commenter above asked if there is any specific m...A commenter above asked if there is any specific mention of pedophelia in the Gemorah. I'd be interested to know that too. Anyone volunteering to give the answer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-33656698630623594672008-09-14T09:24:00.000-04:002008-09-14T09:24:00.000-04:00Lion,You are right that the OU announcement seems ...Lion,<BR/>You are right that the OU announcement seems to be dealing with substance abuse but the announcement is kind of hazy as to what it really covers. That's why I asked to get a copy of the guidelines. It may be that they didn't want to announce that sexual abuse was included so as not to cause a public outcry by some groups, or it may be that they copped out and it won't be mentioned at all.<BR/><BR/>Re the Hikind commission, I think I'll agree with the commenter who was wary of yet another commission being established to study something. When I hear "politician" and "commission" in the same sentence hope is not springing eternal in my breast.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-64747624247003386862008-09-14T03:02:00.000-04:002008-09-14T03:02:00.000-04:00to correct and clarify, AI supported a bill that "...to correct and clarify, AI supported a bill that "allows" private schools to fingerprint employees (but requires?). it has in the past opposed measures to makes private schools and clergymen mandated reports.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-74786093069483394602008-09-12T18:51:00.000-04:002008-09-12T18:51:00.000-04:00PROFK:it seems that link is about substance abuse,...PROFK:<BR/><BR/>it seems that link is about substance abuse, not sexual abuse?<BR/><BR/>you can forget about agudah ever having a program. they actively lobby against mandatory reporting for clergymen and background checks/fingerprinting for private schools.<BR/><BR/>there is an article in this week's jewish week also about this whole mess.<BR/><BR/>i have to say that the more i read about hikind's commission the less i am impressed with what he wants to accomplish.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-17964447287094211592008-09-12T16:55:00.000-04:002008-09-12T16:55:00.000-04:00Simi,You asked where the OU is in all of this. I ...Simi,<BR/>You asked where the OU is in all of this. I can't say for sure since I have not received my copy of this yet, but they issued something called the Safe Schools Yeshiva Network Policy. You can read more information at <BR/><BR/>http://www.ou.org/news/article/ou_inaugurates_safe_schools_yeshiva_network_policy/<BR/><BR/>Sexual abuse is not specifically mentioned in the article although the word abuse is. All the way at the bottom there is an email address where you can get a copy of the new policy. They also list the yeshivas in NY and NJ that are presently part of this partnership.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-44659681825414732152008-09-12T15:51:00.000-04:002008-09-12T15:51:00.000-04:00Readers may find of interest this article, dated t...Readers may find of interest this article, dated today, in The Jewish Star, a Long Island paper. Obviously R. Twerski has resigned from the Hikind Commission, but at the time the article was written he was still on it and some of his comments in this article are not seen in other reports we have been reading.<BR/><BR/>http://thejewishstar.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/abuse-victim-sues-school-principal/ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-77545681663333405472008-09-12T15:08:00.000-04:002008-09-12T15:08:00.000-04:00There are two parts to this problem of sexual abus...There are two parts to this problem of sexual abuse of kids. The first is the lack of any organized response on the part of rabbaim and rabbinical organizations to the the whole issue of child abuse. Simi is right. You don't hear it discussed at any of the national conventions or any of the forums. No one has issued any guidelines for schools. No one has told parents what to look out for.Even if not a single incident of such abuse has ever been known to take place at a particular school the rules and guidelines need to be there and parents have to know what they are. <BR/><BR/>The second part of the problem is the response when abuse is alleged by someone. Schools go into protective mode, with the whole more important then any of its parts, or at least the student parts. Schools act as if they have some heavenly contract and we mere mortals aren't allowed to complain, no matter what the issue. Of all places you would think that a school would care about children. If they don't care about our children and they don't care for our children, then just what are they doing in existence? And we are paying them for the privilege of their covering up the abuses of some of their staff members? Just why are we doing this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-88523245940912698512008-09-12T13:24:00.000-04:002008-09-12T13:24:00.000-04:00It took all of my lunch hour to read this posting ...It took all of my lunch hour to read this posting and comments and try to take them in, and I am sick to my stomache.<BR/><BR/>If we do nothing that will have some affect on this horror that strikes some of our children then we are as guilty as those animals who are the abusers. <BR/><BR/>Where are the national educational organizations in setting up the standards to prevent and deal with this problem and publicizing them? Where is Torah Umesorah? Where is the OU? National Young Israel? Chabad? the Agudah? Where are the Gedolei Yisroel? These are our leaders? I've heard more that might help on this blog and a few others then coming out of all the big leaders of the frum community. What is it going to take before these groups figure out that they are part of the problem because they aren't part of a solution? What will it take? Some day one of these abusers is going to go too far and a child will die c'v. Is that what they are waiting for?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-57274993117339207452008-09-12T12:20:00.000-04:002008-09-12T12:20:00.000-04:00Where to even begin. First, thanks to all for wha...Where to even begin. First, thanks to all for what has been a reasoned comment thread. Many things have been mentioned that are points we should think about and consider. And thanks as well for the restraint in how things were discussed. <BR/><BR/>I got an email from a reader regarding this posting and my answer to her needs to be here as well. I stated in my posting that the event that took place did not traumatize me, either as an adult or as a child. It did not. I did not write this posting because events in the frum community unburied long held fears and trauma. I wrote this posting and told what happened once in my long ago past because I am mad and angry and disgusted at the frum response to this moral outrage. I wrote of my father's and uncle's method of making sure that the situation never arose again because for those who do fear community pressure and ostracism, because for those who do feel they have no choices when abuse arises, there is still one choice. No, it is not, today, the first choice nor the most ideal choice. And in an ideal world we would not be having this discussion to begin with. But this is not an ideal world. And before I would let a child have to think that no one cares, that no one can protect them, that no one can do anything about the pain that was inflicted upon him/her, then yes, I would not hesitate to recommend a visit by dads at the midnight hour.<BR/><BR/>In Megillas Esther we are told that the edicts against the Jews were sent out by Haman in multiple languages, so that each person could read and understand the edicts in their own language. The language of abuse is violence and yes, it just may be that there are instances when we are going to have to send our message out in a language the abusers and their apologists understand.<BR/><BR/>We tell our children often that we love them. They also need to feel, as I did in that long ago time, that we will protect them.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-1318928270960016682008-09-12T10:53:00.000-04:002008-09-12T10:53:00.000-04:00I admit to having no knowledge about this so that'...I admit to having no knowledge about this so that's why I am asking. Is there no mention anywhere in the Talmud or other ancient writings specifically to sexual predators or to child sexual abusers? If there is a mention is it condoned? Are we told not to do anything about it? Was there no punishment? If there is no mention does that mean that it isn't important that gedolim today deal with this "modern" issue? They pick up on and regulate plenty of other things that weren't discussed in the Gemorah. Why make an exception for this horrible act?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-57772988028141177092008-09-12T10:47:00.000-04:002008-09-12T10:47:00.000-04:00Regarding the PTA meeting Sarah described: Aren't...Regarding the PTA meeting Sarah described: <BR/><BR/>Aren't we told (not sure the reference, but it's usually cited with respect to the laws of Yichud) that NOBODOY is "beyond" the laws of Yichud? That *anyone* is succeptible, and thus everyone is required to put fences around his behavior?<BR/><BR/>Being known as a great scholar or tzaddik gamur doesn't exempt a person from having to guard oneself from the yetzer harah. <BR/><BR/>To offer a person's madrega as an argument against an accusation is to deny the human condition, and makes the defender sound like he's marketing laundry soap, not running a school.<BR/><BR/>He can certainly say he finds it difficult to believe, or that he doubts it's the truth, based on his knowledge of the person's character. But if the school authority finds it *impossible* to believe of any given individual (absent exculpatory evidence) then he's not qualified for his job of running a school, or of being in a position that makes him a mandated reporter.Juggling Frogshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03572259373523756647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-70992487355571592082008-09-12T10:33:00.000-04:002008-09-12T10:33:00.000-04:00One further note: telling the police in the U.S. m...One further note: telling the police in the U.S. means that the accused is presumed innocent and entitled to due process. This is not true of the "rumor mill." <BR/><BR/>There is an obligation to report, but there are sitations where this can be handled with discretion. <BR/><BR/>All the energy that currently is used to keep the accusations from being made, can then be channeled to encouraging the public to giving the accused the benefit of the doubt (but not access to children) while the authorities handle the investigation.Juggling Frogshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03572259373523756647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-72599420542280804172008-09-12T10:32:00.000-04:002008-09-12T10:32:00.000-04:00Has anything really changed since ProfK was a girl...Has anything really changed since ProfK was a girl? Sure, we have laws now that weren't there when she was a girl. There's a lot more knowledge about what goes on. We tell our kids things that her parents didn't think they had to tell their kids.We are far more aware of the problem today then back then. And still nothing has changed. If anything it is worse today because back then they didn't really know about what they had to protect their kids from. <BR/><BR/>Bravo to the prof's father. He took maybe the only action that was available to him then. And he didn't wait to take that action. We have other options besides violent ones that are available today but the frum community can't/won't use them. So we are right back to the old days and violence seems to be all we are left with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-84772717384418053462008-09-12T10:11:00.000-04:002008-09-12T10:11:00.000-04:00But doesn't all this still come down to are the pa...But doesn't all this still come down to are the parents going to do their job as parents or aren't they? I took a parenting class once and the instructor stressed to us that we were a child's first line of defense. I can't fathom what goes through the minds of parents that they can even weigh community disapproval against their child's well being. You can always move to another community if you have to but you can't just replace your child. And in the end isn't it God that we have to answer to? I just don't see Him buying the cop out that we were afraid for shidduchim for our grandchildren.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82714332969022004182008-09-12T10:01:00.000-04:002008-09-12T10:01:00.000-04:00So lots of people won't report what they know abou...So lots of people won't report what they know about sexual abuse in a yeshiva because they are afraid of the retribution the frum community will take. You read lots in the papers about how police were helped by confidential informants and we never find out who those informants are. Maybe somebody needs to find out how you can get that confidentiality from the police and then inform the rest of us. If nobody knew that you were the one who snitched on the perv in the school so they couldn't threaten you or your family maybe more people would come forward with what they know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com