tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post8947830768917954263..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: On School CalendarsProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-32743175251429446752010-05-30T12:24:46.673-04:002010-05-30T12:24:46.673-04:00Thanks for considering nursing as a regular job. Y...Thanks for considering nursing as a regular job. Yes, I'll be working second shift today and tomorrow because I exchanged these days for when I was off for Shavuous. I'm lucky that my husband will be home tomorrow to look after the kids. My sister, who is also a nurse, isn't so lucky. Her husband is a radiology technician and he is on call today and tomorrow. Have you ever tried to hire a babysitter over a legal holiday weekend?! Even the frum ones have plans. They'll have to travel about 1 1/2 hours each way to drop the kids off by family. <br /><br />I think they could do better by the calendar when it comes to the extra days around a yom tov but they are never going to get it perfect for everybody.Dinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-13651524145188591202010-05-30T06:38:14.727-04:002010-05-30T06:38:14.727-04:00Mark,
Can't say "no" calendar anymo...Mark,<br /><br />Can't say "no" calendar anymore, can you? :-)<br /><br />Sure I can. You are assuming a fact that is not true across the board: ALL parents receive ALL federal/state holidays as off days. Maybe most, maybe only some do, but not all. One exception disproves the rule, and I know lots of exceptions to that rule. Let me give just one type of example.<br /><br />Hospitals do not close down for federal holidays. (And yes, these are "regular" jobs) Even with a reduced crew because some people take a personal day off, doctors, nurses, technicians, all kinds of therapists and administrative staff report for duty. The same is true for long care facilities and nursing homes.<br /><br />At least in the NYC area you have plenty of frum people associated with the above mentioned "businesses." In many cases, for instance, the frum nurses trade shifts with the non-Jewish nurses--I'll cover your days you need off if you will cover me for my holiday days off. So they don't have to work on yom tov but they find themselves working on Christmas and New Years and a whole bunch of the federal holidays. <br /><br />We have 3 frum pharmacists in our shul. The pharmacies they work for are open on all federal holidays. They, too, find themselves working those days because they have arranged to trade with others who will cover when they need to be off for yom tov. <br /><br />Oh, and by the way, this group of parents also may have to include Sundays, whether always or only sometimes, as part of their working days, so having no school on Sundays would not benefit those people.<br /><br />So I stand by my statement that NO calendar would be good for ALL working parents in a school. And we really have to stop defining regular jobs for frum people as being only those associated with Wall Street, accounting or the law.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-536474426610075712010-05-30T02:10:46.964-04:002010-05-30T02:10:46.964-04:00ProfK - Let's face some unpalatable facts. Whe...ProfK - <i>Let's face some unpalatable facts. When both parents work there is <b>NO</b> yeshiva calendar that is not going to play havoc with their work schedules.</i><br /><br />Really? "NO" calender? How about this - the schools remain open on every single day that a frum parent in a regular job will normally work. That would be every Monday through Friday except national holidays and chag days. And to heck with 180 days, if I'm paying $15k in tuition, I want way more than 180 days a year.<br /><br />Can't say "no" calendar anymore, can you? :-)<br /><br />MarkMarkhttp://twitter.com/Marksoflanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-5223831301156414072010-05-28T08:09:17.691-04:002010-05-28T08:09:17.691-04:00JS:
"The perception, true or false, is that ...JS:<br /><br />"The perception, true or false, is that administrators and teachers look at the calendar and decide what would be most convenient for them."<br /><br />gee, you think this possibly could be true?<br /><br />(one administrator explained to me that he "has no choice" but to give off 2 weeks for pesach because the teachers would all just call in sick anyway.)<br /><br />TESYAA:<br /><br />i think that working as a teenager (camps don't count) is an important life lesson that our kids miss out on.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-65185249520958385412010-05-27T14:41:53.029-04:002010-05-27T14:41:53.029-04:00I forgot to add that as a frum teenager at age 16,...I forgot to add that as a frum teenager at age 16, I went from store to store at our local mall applying for summer jobs until I was hired. Can you imagine a frum girl today being willing to work in a mall selling tank tops and shorts (and dealing with non-Jewish customers)? Mostly they're working in backyard camps.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-13565542380888511892010-05-27T14:20:18.365-04:002010-05-27T14:20:18.365-04:00Anonymous - many frum people I know shy away from ...Anonymous - many frum people I know shy away from any business dealings with non-Jews. So working as a seasonal worker at Macy's in December is OUT. Most frum people I know in retail work in frum establishments serving frum people. I can think of one lady who works in ShopRite and I have a lot of respect for her.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-78539176293026283842010-05-27T13:10:30.270-04:002010-05-27T13:10:30.270-04:00How many frum parents work in retail stores (exclu...How many frum parents work in retail stores (excluding frummie businesses?) I'm laughing at that one. <br /><br />Must be nice tesyaa to live in such a rarified atmosphere where frum Jews are only doctors, lawyers and indian chiefs. Step off your dream cloud and I'll introduce you to a whole bunch of people who work in retail and manufacturing and not all of them in what you snidely categorize as frummie stores. And if they work in a store owned by a frum person and which serves both the frum and secular community that's a problem to you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-1020158977619020242010-05-27T11:13:47.581-04:002010-05-27T11:13:47.581-04:00How many frum parents work in retail stores (exclu...How many frum parents work in retail stores (excluding frummie businesses?) I'm laughing at that one. And Orthonomics has often commented that as an accountant, mid January is a terrible time for a break.<br /><br />And there is no way that yeshivas are required to meet the 180 day requirement. In the local bais yaakov, girls are off from Rosh Chodesh Nisan until after Pesach. They start the year and end the year the same time as all other schools. They certainly have the same holidays and inservice days off. How many SCHOOL days are they off for Pesach? I'd say 15-17.<br /><br />I have nothing against teachers and administrators, but the school schedule is designed around their needs/desires, not those of the parents. Why not just say so?tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-63890624110574630082010-05-27T10:43:54.998-04:002010-05-27T10:43:54.998-04:00The oldest Day School down here, the Hebrew Academ...The oldest Day School down here, the Hebrew Academy of Miami, was originally a winter school for wintering NYers on holiday. Traditionally, the wealthy people in the North East would go on vacation in the winter. As private tutors gave way to school environments, a winter school existed. One of the Fort Lauderdale Prep schools started the same way, the founder was tutoring children on vacation, and expanded year round for locals, and eventually turned into a year round school...<br /><br />The time frame for this was the 30s, as the depression wiped out some people but not others.<br /><br />Regarding retail, the slow period includes Christmas to New Years. Late January is the end of the fiscal year for retailers... and January matters now since gift cards have extended the Christmas shopping season into January.<br /><br />Look, for the wealthy vacationing set, January is cheaper for family vacations than December. Ski Vacations and Cruises are big from January through March, and are popular with the wealthy.<br /><br />The parents with dual W-2 earning spouses are getting killed by a schedule created in a different era, before the age of salaries and vacation days (and FICA and income taxes for all), when you worked and got paid or didn't work and didn't get paid.<br /><br />ProfK: for many people that are busting ass to pay for this expensive lifestyle, 12 hour days are the norm, not a long day to be complained about. And for those with a normal 12 hour day, there are not multiple 1 week+ breaks to recharge.<br /><br />Sunday School: it is beyond silly to insist that every day must be learning Torah and closing for weeks at a time. I understand the philosophy: Shabbat and Yom Tov you learn with your father, during the week you learn with your Rebbe.<br /><br />That said, for those that don't have the luxury of weeks at a time, a holiday based programming during Chol Hamoed would be nice. Make it optional, charge a fee, and do all holiday programming. "Back in the day" the schools were open Chol Hamoed Sukkot, because it was assumed that some of the kids would otherwise not eat in a Sukkah, but as the Orthodox community has increased in observance, this is less of a concern.<br /><br />The day schools aren't going to change, and they answer to two groups:<br />A) the wealthy -- whose need for expensive vacations is important because they foot the bill with donations<br />B) the poor -- who simply have free time to organize, show up, and generally attend every meeting<br /><br />A family where one spouse works 60-80 hours and the other works 40-50 hours simply doesn't have time for 3-4 hour evening meetings where the administrators pontificate and allow 10 minutes for questioning.<br /><br />Things aren't going to change, so people come online to vent.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-39065715894647290272010-05-27T09:36:15.384-04:002010-05-27T09:36:15.384-04:00Won't say I love the school calendar cuz I don...Won't say I love the school calendar cuz I don't but if you are looking to take a vacation with your kids in the winter break the January time is better than the earlier end of Dec. break. With all the public schools and colleges off then and with businesses giving off for the holidays every touristy attraction is over packed with people December time, and the prices aren't cheap. Airfares to anyplace warm are jacked up in price December time and just try to find an open flight---not going to happen. Local attractions are also packed with people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-22791069793378931192010-05-27T08:06:06.867-04:002010-05-27T08:06:06.867-04:00Hope a nights sleep and a gallon of coffee relaxed...Hope a nights sleep and a gallon of coffee relaxed you Prof. You're preaching activism about 20 years too late. To people for whom conversation means text messaging and face to face means I'll comment on your facebook page and you comment on mine the idea of expending energy in getting people together in person is quaint and old fashioned. It's far easier to say that THEY won't listen anyway so why bother.<br /><br />Even if you were to get together a group of the old rabble rousers and do all the organizing just how many people do you think would come to a public meeting and put themselves on the line by publicly saying to the schools you need to change the calendar or face the consequences of an enraged parent body. Today's generation of parents is mostly afraid of its own shadow. They don't sneeze without worrying about how THEY will look at it. And don't think that THEY don't know that--it's what they count on to keep the parents in line.Adelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-67485458011614786722010-05-27T02:49:59.107-04:002010-05-27T02:49:59.107-04:00"yes there are mandated numbers of days in NY..."yes there are mandated numbers of days in NY"<br /><br />certainly not from a state perspective (i can't find anything from the city, but i'm not a good internet searcher): "The nonpublic school's calendar should approximate that of the public school, but it need not be in session for the 180 days required for a public school district to receive its full State aid." see http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/nonpub/manualfornewadministratorsofnps/statereqs.html<br /><br />" And yes, the bus schedules for the yeshivas work out because they have different hours from the public schools."<br /><br />then how do you explain that public and private schools (jewish or otherwise) both start at approximately the same time? the bus companies seem to manage in the morning and i see no reason why they afternoons should be an issue. perhaps the school you mentioned waited too late to request a change in bus schedules? (i know for a fact that it wouldn't be the first time a yeshivah lost out on public funding because it couldn't get its act together)<br /><br />"No one put forth a copy of a petition that could be circulated among parents or how to organize that. No one mentioned having a series of parlor meetings or a community wide meeting"<br /><br />ROTFL!Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82956733815662919192010-05-27T00:10:59.892-04:002010-05-27T00:10:59.892-04:00Sorry (or maybe not) if some of what follows comes...Sorry (or maybe not) if some of what follows comes out sounding a little bit snippy, but my tolerance level at this time of night is way down. I left for work at 11:30 this morning and arrived home at 11:12 pm--yeah, really a cushy job we teachers have. And the same happened Monday. And that's not counting the 9-1/2 hours yesterday spent on marking and test preparation. <br /><br />To the anonymous who guesses I haven't spent a lot of time in 9-5 jobs with limited vacation time--you're wrong. And even with being full time in academia now I also freelance and am dealing with the corporate schedules of my clients.<br /><br />Let me see if I can sum up my intentions for this posting briefly. The old Yiddish saying applies here: alles in einem ist nisht du bei keinem--everything all together nobody has. No, not every parent will be happy no matter what a yeshiva does to tweak its schedule. Should there be some accomodation? Yes, but it isn't going to happen if parents insist on "it's going to be my way to be completely perfect for me or else." And it sure isn't going to happen until parents get off their duffs and put in the necessary expenditure of time and effort to organize together with other parents to confront the schools. You want all the schools in a community to be using the same calendar? Then all of you, as a full community are going to need to pull together and speak with a unified voice. There's a reason why we have the saying "There's strength in numbers." It's long past the time for all the mumbling and complaining--the time now is to put your actions where your mouths have been. Sorry if you're offended, but I call 'em as I see 'em.<br /><br />Lion, yes there are mandated numbers of days in NY. Either go to ny.gov or nyc.gov and do a search for mandated teaching days/hours. And yes, the bus schedules for the yeshivas work out because they have different hours from the public schools. When schools have days with dismissals that conflict with the public school pick ups the yeshivas will usually tell the parents they have to make private arrangements for pick up. One local yeshiva that had a schedule that conflicted had to contract with a private bus company to provide the transportation and parents paid plenty for that.<br /><br />Al, what industries are slow in January? How about retail sales. The big push is heading up to Christmas. The week between Christmas and New Years is packed with people returning items they got as gifts for the holidays. From then until the big sales for the Presidents Day observance retail is fairly much dead. The new spring styles are not yet in the stores and the winter styles have been picked over already. January is a dead month for consumer appliance sales, again partially because of the preceding holidays. The hospitality and tourism industries and their related businesses are slow as molasses in January, Florida perhaps excepted for those with no children on school schedules any longer. Colleges are back in session. Accountants who deal with businesses whose fiscal calendar run on the regular calendar have plenty of end of quarter reports to be doing at the end of December, first week of January and are slower at the end of January.<br /><br />You know what got me miffed? Nowhere in all that complaining I read was there even one suggestion for how to get a change made. No one put forth a copy of a petition that could be circulated among parents or how to organize that. No one mentioned having a series of parlor meetings or a community wide meeting to discuss the calendar specifically and where a parents manifesto could be presented. No one presented an idea of how to adjudicate parental differences of opinion. No one put forth a single idea that might actually get some change going.<br /><br />Sure, the Internet is a great place to let off steam--I do it myself. But in no way is its possibility as a tool for real change being utilized.<br /><br />Sorry, but enough said. It's after midnight and I have a full day again tomorrow.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-81303586563095122882010-05-26T20:42:47.340-04:002010-05-26T20:42:47.340-04:00So what industry is the "slow" period la...So what industry is the "slow" period late January?Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-26231828496941959242010-05-26T18:16:37.037-04:002010-05-26T18:16:37.037-04:00PROFK:
some minor quibbles:
"The arrangemen...PROFK:<br /><br />some minor quibbles:<br /><br />"The arrangement works out mostly because yeshivas and the public schools don't run on the same time table for arrival and dismissal."<br /><br />i don't think this is true.<br /><br />"those are your kids we are talking about"<br /><br />my son has quite a few years to go before he fasts<br /><br />"those breaks are usually a full week long"<br /><br />my son's winter break is from thurs all the way through the following week<br /><br />"the number of state mandated teaching days in states with mandated days"<br /><br />i haven't been able to confirm that there is a mandated amount other than for UPK.<br /><br />major objections:<br /><br />1) as JS pointed out above, our issue is not last minute scrambling, but the calendar per se<br /><br />2) you are basically concluding that because it is impossible to satisfy everyone (i don't disagree here) then the schools shouldn't bother trying to satisfy anyone? certainly there are some ways to fix the schedule that would address the needs of the majority of parents.Lion of Zionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-28601903263727828472010-05-26T12:47:01.093-04:002010-05-26T12:47:01.093-04:00ProfK: Something tells me that you have not spent...ProfK: Something tells me that you have not spent too many years working a year-round full time 9-5 job (i.e. not a job with an academic calendar) with only one to two weeks vacation and perhaps a few sick/personal days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-16066193233023040072010-05-26T12:37:46.612-04:002010-05-26T12:37:46.612-04:00tessya: It depends on the person and the job, but...tessya: It depends on the person and the job, but fasting at a desk job generally is not the same fasting while running around after active pre-schoolers all day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-87763859800870304232010-05-26T12:30:32.714-04:002010-05-26T12:30:32.714-04:00I think JS commented elsewhere that there's an...I think JS commented elsewhere that there's an attitude that you can't possibly be a frum Jew and work erev Yom Tov and as late as possible on Fridays. I get this all the time. When I went back to work full time, people said, "but you're off Fridays, right?" Uh, no. A neighbor asked me two weeks before Pesach when my "last day" was. Uh - erev Pesach? (Actually, I took a half day off erev Pesach, while my husband took the day off and my teenagers did their assigned preparations). I don't think I'm a lesser Jew because I make sure to prepare for Shabbos Thursday night instead of spending all day Friday doing so.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-786767235427243432010-05-26T12:24:35.394-04:002010-05-26T12:24:35.394-04:00ProfK,
Kinda surprised at the lengths you went to...ProfK,<br /><br />Kinda surprised at the lengths you went to in the post to defend the status quo. To me, it was just a bunch of apologetics.<br /><br />I don't have kids yet, so maybe I'm way off here, but the parents aren't complaining that the days off are a surprise or that it catches them off guard, they're complaining that the days off are wholly unnecessary and that it unduly burdens them. Yes, arrangements can be made (and are made), but that misses the point. They shouldn't have to be made in the first place!<br /><br />I'll grant you chol hamoed perhaps, but erev chag? Isru chag? And why can't teacher conferences or other events be on Sundays or at other times that are convenient for working parents and not just administrators and teachers? Most working parents I know have to work at least occasionally on Sundays (for no extra pay) or stay late or come in early for training. The perception, true or false, is that administrators and teachers look at the calendar and decide what would be most convenient for them. Teachers need to prepare for yom tov? OK, give off erev chag. They need to relax and get their houses back in order afterward? OK, give off isru chag. It's the lack of consideration that bothers everyone. The same goes for late-starting Shabbat - I can't head out of work till at least 5PM and make it home about 30 minutes before mincha. Why should the teachers/administrators get the luxury?<br /><br />And yes, it is about the kids as well. It's about how the parents are paying for their kids to learn something and nearly every school week is somehow interrupted by a day off or an early dismissal.<br /><br />Finally, I think what's really an issue is how the schools try to out-frum each other by scoffing at secular holidays and secular vacation days. Beyond scoffing, they davka make school on these days to prove they are frum and not following "chukat hagoyim." So, school on Thanksgiving, move vacation away from Christmas and New Year's, etc. I see this at shuls also. If the parents should have off on a secular holiday, they are bombarded with learning opportunities and shiurim. God forbid parents and kids should have off on a day that isn't shabbat or yom tov to just enjoy each other's company and do a family activity.<br /><br />The only "solution" is to send all your kids to the same coed school.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-4832516325508966632010-05-26T12:24:17.199-04:002010-05-26T12:24:17.199-04:00Giving fast days off is for the teachers at least ...Giving fast days off is for the teachers at least as much for the students who might be fasting. Otherwise, why in the world do the full day preschools also close early on fast days? Like you said, working parents fast at work and preschool teachers should be able to also.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-41940044285038495842010-05-26T11:59:29.822-04:002010-05-26T11:59:29.822-04:00TRUDY:
"One suggestion that I read on a diff...TRUDY:<br /><br />"One suggestion that I read on a different blog talked about making the school day longer and eliminating Sundays."<br /><br />i made a simiar suggestion elsewhere and above, but it involved shifting hours from sunday to vacation days and half days. every sunday eliminated could restore a half day to full day. every 2 sundays eliminated could restore 1 full day.Lion of Zionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-68065644757983291882010-05-26T11:46:43.758-04:002010-05-26T11:46:43.758-04:00If school schedules are geared to only one parent ...If school schedules are geared to only one parent working, then maybe its time for tuitions to be geared to only one parent working. Unfortunately, since not every family can have an investment banker, neurosurgeon or wall street lawyer, those two earner families are necessary to pay tuition. Nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-33821298723383703352010-05-26T11:33:53.321-04:002010-05-26T11:33:53.321-04:00The original public school schedule that is still ...The original public school schedule that is still mostly followed by schools in the US DID accomodate parents. The kids were needed home to help on the farm during growing season and harvest season. Even the schools in the larger urban areas followed this schedule and you could hardly say that most parents in NYC needed their kids home in the summer to help on the farm.<br /><br />There are some places that have gone away from the traditional calendar and have gone to year round schooling with shorter breaks built in throughout the year. I'm wondering how that schedule works out for families where both parents work. You can't exactly send the kids to camp in February or November.<br /><br />One suggestion that I read on a different blog talked about making the school day longer and eliminating Sundays. Sounds nice in theory but has anyone thought about whether a six year old could reasonably handle a day away from home that would begin around 7:30 in school and end around 6:30? That would have to include at least two meals a day eaten in school if not three? (And let's not even talk here about the garbage meals that are given out in the school cafeterias). Sure the concerns of the parents are important but shouldn't the first focus be on what would be best for the kids? Otherwise, why bother having any.Trudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-41744043557785523422010-05-26T11:21:53.640-04:002010-05-26T11:21:53.640-04:00I agree that working parents are going to have dif...I agree that working parents are going to have difficulties regardless of what the schools do, but that is no excuse for not making some changes. Having all the schools within a geographic area coordinate their schedules and getting rid of the January breaks are simply no brainers. Also, even if only 20% of the students have two working parents (a figure that obviously is too low) that is no reason for not trying to help out that 20%. Jewish schools should be leaders in setting examples in doing what is right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-21246184961343114462010-05-26T11:09:31.247-04:002010-05-26T11:09:31.247-04:00TUVI:
"Schools don't necessarily have al...TUVI:<br /><br />"Schools don't necessarily have all the data about how many dual earner families they have in the school."<br /><br />balony.<br /><br />"Only one parent speaking up won't make a dent in the schedule "<br /><br />yes, this is a different problem<br /><br />"never going to see a school schedule that fits everyone in the school perfectly or even near perfectly."<br /><br />and this is one excuse that a school uses not to make *any* changes.Lion of Zionnoreply@blogger.com