tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post7266949291124317002..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: On MentchlichkeitProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-78146266479417705252011-04-11T18:09:07.852-04:002011-04-11T18:09:07.852-04:00SARAK:
"The CRC seems to make things very ea...SARAK:<br /><br />"The CRC seems to make things very easy."<br /><br />yes.<br />as far as i understand, mainstream (e.g., rav moshe) psak is that it mutar to use chometzdik medicine (assuming unflavored tablets swallowed whole). it isn't achila, there is no hana'a, etc.<br /><br />the issue is to what extent one must go to obtain a non-chometz alternative. iirc the CRC's rationale is that many people put themselves at risk in their quest for such an alternative (i.e., either they use an inappropriate alternative or, where one can't be found or insurance won't pay, they take nothing for 8 days).<br /><br />as such medicine lists such as those issued by the LA kollel are public health threat even thought they have good intentions.Abba's Rantingshttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-18501785100048823312011-04-11T16:58:05.758-04:002011-04-11T16:58:05.758-04:00RUTH:
"I also don't like that they will ...RUTH:<br /><br />"I also don't like that they will let you know which toilet bowl cleaners are under their hashgocho for no charge but then turn around and charge you for medical information."<br /><br />toilet bowl cleaners pay for the right to be listed in the guide. does pfizer?<br /><br />(on the other hand i think the fact that star k sells its hoshgocho to toilet bowl cleaners is an ethical problem.)Abba's Rantingshttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-20748202098755012452011-04-11T16:48:51.710-04:002011-04-11T16:48:51.710-04:00ANON:
"With no exceptions everyone said that...ANON:<br /><br />"With no exceptions everyone said that the unethical behavior was the StarK's in selling the list to begin with."<br /><br />how in this world is this unethical. is it unethical to charge for the medicines themselves? if not, then why is it unethical to sell a medicine list? <br /><br />"All their other product lists are available free online so why did they single out the medicine list to have to be purchased?"<br /><br />uh, maybe because the star k is paid by the other companies for the right to use the star k symbol on their products. you think pfizer pays the LA kollel for the right to have lipitor listed in the guide?Abba's Rantingshttp://agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-61059219284234734402011-04-11T16:09:48.673-04:002011-04-11T16:09:48.673-04:00Trudy: Being a non-profit doesn't mean you ca...Trudy: Being a non-profit doesn't mean you can't charge for your services. Plenty of non-profits charge for services, such as hospitals and colleges. Agreed, however, that this was mishandled in a big way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-21924669570994791722011-04-11T12:24:45.782-04:002011-04-11T12:24:45.782-04:00You are wrong Moshe that the Star K is not a non p...You are wrong Moshe that the Star K is not a non profit--according to information available on the web, it is a non profit organization. As such it is supposed to be service oriented, and mostly it is. I agree that the medicine list was handled wrong and should not have been sold to the public the way they are doing. At least with the Blumenkrantz book everything in the book is for sale, regular products and medical information. Leaves a funny taste with me that the Star K would give you all the other info for free and charge for the medical list.Trudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-50878457625794497852011-04-11T12:18:46.084-04:002011-04-11T12:18:46.084-04:00The CRC seems to make things very easy.The <a href="http://www.crcweb.org/medicine%20guide.pdf" rel="nofollow">CRC</a> seems to make things very easy.SaraKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08053908720926177402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-23278917874636254612011-04-11T11:54:06.724-04:002011-04-11T11:54:06.724-04:00I'll absolve the StarK from intentionally tryi...I'll absolve the StarK from intentionally trying to make money off the backs of people in need of medical information. That said, someone in their office made a really poor business decision in deciding to sell this particular list as if it was just any old item to be sold.<br /><br />If the monies collected from the sale of the list goes towards one of their specific chesed type projects that should be stated in bold letters at the top of the list. "Sales of this list support____." If the monies go to the LA Kollel, that too should go in bold letters at the top of the list.<br /><br />I agree with the commenter above who said this was a poor fundraiser and a public relations disaaster. You don't fundraise using information that they could have trumpeted all over the various Jewish news weeklies as a service to the frum community.Asking people to support their work by sending in donations is a lot different from keeping knowledge back unless you pay for it.Stuienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-37436348879786758422011-04-11T10:43:53.709-04:002011-04-11T10:43:53.709-04:00First off, I think people should be aware that the...First off, I think people should be aware that there is a big difference between the morality/ethics of copying the star-k list and the legal issue of copyright violation. Briefly, a document doesn't need to say "copyright" on it to be protected.<br /><br />It seems like a pretty lousy thing for the star-k to do to make all their lists free except for the one most people care about the most. I get that they're a business, but it seems like poor business sense to tick people off in this manner. My only response is that, since they're a business, treat them like one and write them a letter stating you won't be buying any more products that they certify. You can even write to companies whose products they do certify telling them why you won't be buying it anymore. Extreme? Perhaps. But, what other pressure can a consumer place on a business?<br /><br />All the hashgachas fund multiple projects from the money they collect from their supervision work. The OU is a classic example: they fund shuls, NCSY, day school initiatives, education, publications, Yachad, etc. Personally, I'd rather have these types of services than pay a bit less for a hashgacha, but I get why some people may not want to.<br /><br />The difficulty is that the organizations are business but hold themselves out as providing communal services. In many ways, this is just like the yeshivas.<br /><br />Finally, I second what tesyaa said, talk to your rabbi. Most of the concern regarding inedible items such as medicine and cosmetics is a chumra on a chumra on a chumra. Talk to your rabbi, you may be pleasantly surprised.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-86339064991231566252011-04-11T10:39:11.961-04:002011-04-11T10:39:11.961-04:00They used to mail the list to local residents. Now...They used to mail the list to local residents. Now it is a fundraiser for the LA kollel. There are many fundraisers for different organizations--so why can't they have one too. <br /><br />For me that is simple Anonymous--you don't fundraise with a product that is a necessity re sakonas nefoshos and that is not available elsewhere. You want to sell things to raise money? No problem here, but make that things that people want, not things that people need. They want to raise funds? Let them wait until after Pesach and send out a general mailing reminding people that they provide an important service--free service--to frum klal in putting together the medicine list. I'd bet that they would raise a whole lot more that way then by selling the list and stirring up ill will.<br /><br />And please, no one is seeing that the Star K does not do good work otherwise. And it isn't loshon horah to point out that an error is being made by the Star K that can be costly to the frum consumer, and that a change is needed.Tuvinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-81457123870568886022011-04-11T10:26:32.938-04:002011-04-11T10:26:32.938-04:00I would add that many rabbis hold that medicines w...I would add that many rabbis hold that medicines with no flavor don't require Pesach supervision since they don't come under the category of food - all the more so ointments and lotions which aren't ingested. It is a sign of our chumra culture that we require supervision. Ask your local rabbi, of course, but you'd be surprised how many rabbis say that inedible items (including medicines with no flavor) don't require a Pesach hechsher. <br /><br />And the argument that the list wouldn't be produced if there were no requirement is problematic. (1) do readers of the list always hold exclusively by the Star-K? (2) the Star-K knows that some consumers want the list, regardless of how rabbis pasken.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-73129752130209999952011-04-11T10:03:50.622-04:002011-04-11T10:03:50.622-04:00"They aren't a nonprofit organization and..."They aren't a nonprofit organization and they never claim to be anything but a business."<br /><br />Wow, I looked at their webpage, and you're right, I didn't see anything about them being a non-profit. Which, if true, is disturbing for so many reasons.Shmendriknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-9566067437925238272011-04-11T10:01:26.159-04:002011-04-11T10:01:26.159-04:00They used to mail the list to local residents. Now...They used to mail the list to local residents. Now it is a fundraiser for the LA kollel. There are many fundraisers for different organizations--so why can't they have one too. <br /><br />In addition, even in the digital/information age, things take time to research. I have a heter to give my kids kitniyos on Pesach due to food allergies. Every year I contact the OU and they do extensive research every year on what soy milk, yogurt, etc alternatives are acceptable to use on pesach. So if it does take extensive research, why shouldn't they get paid. Even after going through the list, I have had questions about medications. I called the star-k and the researched the particular items for me. <br /><br />One last thought. If it's only a couple medications, you can just call their office.<br /><br />The star-k is an amazing organization and it would be appreciated if you did not write negative things about them as it is probably lashon harah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-48855819346361328022011-04-11T09:37:14.230-04:002011-04-11T09:37:14.230-04:00Our shul got a copy of the list and notified all m...Our shul got a copy of the list and notified all members that they had the list. Anyone in the shul can use it and since it is not copyrighted can make a copy of all of it or of the relevant pages in the shul office. Since the shul is "owned" by its dues paying members anything the shul buys is owned by all the members so there is no ethical problem in all of us having and sharing the list.<br /><br />The kashrut organizations have to have money to keep in business but I also don't like that they will let you know which toilet bowl cleaners are under their hashgocho for no charge but then turn around and charge you for medical information.Ruthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-52696174614352199122011-04-11T08:36:02.194-04:002011-04-11T08:36:02.194-04:00You're being too hard on the StarK for no reas...You're being too hard on the StarK for no reason. They aren't a nonprofit organization and they never claim to be anything but a business. Businesses make money by selling services and goods. Just because the list you didn't get is for sale doesn't make the group evil. That's like saying that all drug companies should be nonprofits because what they sell is used for health reasons. If you want what they have for sale you pay for it. No different then any other service.Moshenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-35760195485191644632011-04-11T08:33:38.872-04:002011-04-11T08:33:38.872-04:00The crc has its medicine and cosmetic list online....The crc has its medicine and cosmetic list online. Maybe that helps? I tried to grab the link for you but my phone isn't cooperating. Came up in a quick Google search though.miriamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14339767447913960853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-83330099325060902332011-04-11T08:00:32.371-04:002011-04-11T08:00:32.371-04:00People should not wait until the last minute to re...People should not wait until the last minute to request a new prescription. Drs. offices are busy, and some of us have prescription plans that require you to use mail order if it is a maintenance medication for a crhonic condition (i.e. for diabetes, acid reflux, hypertention, etc.) rather than a one time script, such as for an antibiotic or an emergency situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-20838025798016169292011-04-11T07:53:56.404-04:002011-04-11T07:53:56.404-04:00Someone in our shul got hold of the medicine list,...Someone in our shul got hold of the medicine list, scanned it into his computer and sent a copy to everyone in the minyan. The question came up if this is ethical to do since the list is for sale. With no exceptions everyone said that the unethical behavior was the StarK's in selling the list to begin with. All their other product lists are available free online so why did they single out the medicine list to have to be purchased? Because they knew that people would be forced to buy it because of the information it contained. It's a type of blackmail--pay up or maybe get sick. Yeah, I agree this was lousy on the part of the StarK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com