tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post6575417580444115163..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: On Being Grandparents, not Cash CowsProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-7223714243774266042010-02-07T14:54:31.328-05:002010-02-07T14:54:31.328-05:00I can understand this from both sides. No, I don&#...I can understand this from both sides. No, I don't want anyone else telling me what I can or should do for my children and grand children. Yes, I can understand that the schools have limited money and they may not be able to give my kids a big reduction in tuition. Yes, a vacation for the whole family to a Pesach hotel could fund a lot of tuition. Yes, it's a luxury trip. So the community and schools would like me to forego my luxury trip to the kids. Fine, but what are they bringing to the ttable? What are the schools willing to forego in order to make tuition affordable? It's as much an obvious public luxury for a school to have enough administrators to people a small third world country as that Pesach trip. It's as much an obvious public luxury to have humongous buildings and huge multi acre sites and every extra every thought of as that Pesach trip. I wouldn't mind helping the kids out so much if it wasn't so obvious that what the schools want is that I should forego the luxuries for me and my family so that they can pile on the luxuries for themselves.Heshynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-56684282057448103922010-02-06T22:25:09.503-05:002010-02-06T22:25:09.503-05:00tesyaa - Real estate in the NYC suburbs is not lik...tesyaa - <i>Real estate in the NYC suburbs is not like electronics that will be obsolete in a few years.</i><br /><br />And even this is not a sure thing as anyone who bought in and around Detroit during the boom times can tell you. If the NY area were to lose another million people as it did in the 70's (?), you could see some pain in this regard as well.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82202029693324352952010-02-05T14:20:54.990-05:002010-02-05T14:20:54.990-05:00They have no right to tell you what you can and ca...They have no right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your money.<br /><br />And you have no right to tell them what they can and cannot do with their money.<br /><br />They cannot (and should not) be telling you what you can give to your children.<br /><br />What they can do (should they choose) is determine what THEY want to give (in the form of tuition remission) to your children. And that is their decision, just as much as what you give your children is yours.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-69504516256747275242010-02-05T14:13:12.523-05:002010-02-05T14:13:12.523-05:00Okay Dave, and who gets to decide what kinds of gi...Okay Dave, and who gets to decide what kinds of gifts scream money? Forget a trip to a hotel for Pesach for now. Is buying a computer for a child or grandchild a screaming money gift? How about if I took my grandkids to a matinee of The Lion King during a vacation from school, which I did a few years back? Does that scream money? Or when our son was making Pesach in his home for the first time and didn't have any of the things to do it yet, we bought a silver seder plate for their anniversary and Pesach? Once you open up the bag and allow people to say that X should not be purchased by grandparents whose kids are on tuition reduction, where would it end? I'll tell you where it would end, and we can see it in the way people are already talking today. It would end that buying a grandchild a book would be money that should go to tuition. It would be that buying a grandchild a new coat would be money that should go to tuition--after all, he could have either used the old one another year or gotten a used one from a thrift shop. And it would end with the comment that was at the end of the posting, the one about tuition reduction parents better not put any meat into their cholents. Yeah, that comment was for real, so don't say that nobody would say it.Barbaranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-54464917547696247252010-02-05T13:22:18.673-05:002010-02-05T13:22:18.673-05:00We mostly don't give the kids gifts that screa...<i>We mostly don't give the kids gifts that scream money to the rest of the world, but if we did, just whose business would this be?</i><br /><br />Assuming that in this case your children are unable to pay for their children's private school education, the answer would be "The people who are paying for the grandchildren's tuition."<br /><br />That's the only issue.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-84534887127133906372010-02-05T13:18:54.471-05:002010-02-05T13:18:54.471-05:00Just found your blog and this was some introductio...Just found your blog and this was some introduction. As a grandmother I've got the following opinion. Don't anybody think that I didn't help me children plenty. I helped them to get an education, paying for yeshiva and college. I helped them to learn to be independent. I helped them to learn how to stand on their own two feet. I helped them to learn how to be an adult. <br /><br />And I'm still helping them now. How? I don't pay their bills. They have a realistic view of what they can afford and they go on that basis. I'm helping them because the money my husband and I earn is being put away for later years so that I don't have to come begging to my children. I'm helping them because I pay my own way and set them an example to follow. <br /><br />But about the gifts to the kids, are people seriously arguing that GRANDPARENTS shouldn't buy gifts for their kids or grandkids if they want to? We mostly don't give the kids gifts that scream money to the rest of the world, but if we did, just whose business would this be?Barbaranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-23041931748256880882010-02-05T09:51:22.108-05:002010-02-05T09:51:22.108-05:00Totally confused by this one--"certainly not ...Totally confused by this one--"certainly not excluding the true poor and deserving inner-city kids who earn their scholarships." Just how does a kid earn a scholarship? Only two ways I can think of. Either that kid has scored out of sight on all the standardized tests and shows signs of genius. Or that kid has got a talent that is obvious. Private schools in particular like to point to really outstanding students in areas like these. Of course neither the genius nor the talent is likely obvious when a kid is 5 or 6, so the private school isn't admitting them to first grade on this basis. Private high schools might be more the case to admit these kids but not elementary schools.<br /><br />So what's left? They are truly poor. So the schools admit a few of these kids--looks good for their public image and doesn't cost them much because almost everyone else in the school can shell out the money.<br /><br />Why be so fast to say that these poor kids from the inner city earn their scholarships but not be willing to extend that to the poor frum kids in a yeshiva?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-33824137080418377332010-02-04T22:54:21.148-05:002010-02-04T22:54:21.148-05:00almost exclusively - certainly not excluding the t...almost exclusively - certainly not excluding the true poor and deserving inner-city kids who earn their scholarships<br /><br />whether or not my statement is true, I still don't see the yeshiva system ultimately being viableAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-53443602793422887622010-02-04T22:52:30.139-05:002010-02-04T22:52:30.139-05:00Tesyaa,
Your comment " In American life, priv...Tesyaa,<br />Your comment " In American life, private school is almost exclusively for the wealthy"<br />finally solidified some thinking I've been doing for a while. I'm working on the posting about that thinking for next week. I believe that your statement is wrong from a definition perspective. Zipping lips until next week's posting.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-86236291119929209562010-02-04T22:08:38.717-05:002010-02-04T22:08:38.717-05:00LOZ: Well, I wouldn't use the word squander. ...LOZ: Well, I wouldn't use the word squander. Real estate in the NYC suburbs is not like electronics that will be obsolete in a few years. Paying down a mortgage on a house is a method of forced savings (as opposed to taking cash out of "equity" to spend). <br /><br />But we are what is known as "house rich, cash poor."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-61471998448082473342010-02-04T21:48:02.296-05:002010-02-04T21:48:02.296-05:00TESYAA:
" In American life, private school i...TESYAA:<br /><br />" In American life, private school is almost exclusively for the wealthy."<br /><br />we are wealthy<br />the difference is that:<br />1) we squander our wealth on overpriced real estate<br />2) we have 4.8 kids per family to put through private school wereas non-Jews have 1.9 kids per family (or whatever the numbers are)<br /><br />but agree with the conclusionLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-44036354163275975822010-02-04T20:59:46.146-05:002010-02-04T20:59:46.146-05:00I respectfully submit that even if the schools bec...I respectfully submit that even if the schools become more fiscally responsible, there is no way we as a community can sustain the lethal combination of large family size and universal private education. In American life, private school is almost exclusively for the wealthy. Yet we require private school for all Orthodox children, regardless of their parents' or even their community's earning power. It's a given that this can't be sustained. If we were intelligent, we would be looking for alternative education methods instead of trying to prop up a doomed system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-66837501050280608032010-02-04T19:55:26.268-05:002010-02-04T19:55:26.268-05:00So I've got a few question of my own. The ques...So I've got a few question of my own. The question of grandparents being required to pay tuition for grandkids boils down to high yeshiva tuitions. Some people can pay them and some can't. So my question I guess is who is really in charge of these schools, or maybe who owns them?<br /><br />If these schools are non-profits then who's in charge of that non-profit? Administrators are usually paid employees, so saying a paid employee keeps raising tuition or won't open the books or things like that has to be nonesense. Who is he a paid employee of? That's the person or people that need to be gotten to. Is it the boards of the schools who own the yeshiva or make all the spending and hiring decisions? Well, who chooses those boards? Where do they get their authority to be the board from? It seems to me that there is where the problem lies.<br /><br />Wouldn't it make more sense to get to the root of the problem before causing a war between grandparents, kids and community members? I'd guess that there always have been and always will be some families who will never be able to pay full tuition to a yeshiva. But if such families represent a way smaller percentage of the parents then they do now that could be sustainable. What can't be sustained is that each year more and more parents have to ask for at least some reduction in tuition. When they do that then tuition goes back up again and the next year you get even more parents who need the tuition help.And then that's when you start getting all the talk about the grandparents having to kick in the money.<br /><br />These people, whoever they are, talk a lot about parents who don't have enough money cutting down and back on every thing they spend money on. They talk about doing without a car or a vacation or all kinds of things they call luxuries. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander too. It's not just parents who are in financial trouble, it's schools too. Where is the loud public call for those schools to be cutting down and back? Where is the call for the schools to cut out luxuries and pare down? And forget the call--where is the action? You know of any school that has publicly announced deep cuts to balance the books? You know of any schools who are cutting extra programs and extra staff?<br /><br />Putting the blame on grandparents and stupid trips for Pesach is a way for the schools to shift the discussion and the anger onto someone else. It's a red herring to distract people from where the real problem stems. The problem is not that grandparents aren't pouring enough money into their kids schools or even if they should be doing that. The problem is in the schools themselves. Unless we force a solution to the problem that is based on the schools changing what they are doing there will never be enough money because they spend it faster than it can be printed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-13018564863352088532010-02-04T18:46:52.768-05:002010-02-04T18:46:52.768-05:00LOZ,
I never said my kids were on tuition assistan...LOZ,<br />I never said my kids were on tuition assistance, they are not. But I help them pay tuition, not as a tax deductable contribution to the school to offset their reduction in tuition, but a direct tuition payment. (I am not an accountant, but I am pretty sure that it is illegal to donate money to a school for a tax write off so that members of your family can get a scholarship of equal value.) <br /> I have worked in the business office at Day Schools for most of the last 14 years, it is almost a given that tuition increases every year,and tuition and fees also go up as children enter higher grades in school. No one outside our family is paying their way, for now, but I don't know how much longer my children will be able to cover the cost, even with my assistance.<br />When my kids were young we did not live in the NY Metro area. The elementary Yeshiva day school they attended had larger classes and squeezed $1.50 out of every dollar they got in tuition and donations. If anything their administrator was considerably UNDERPAID for the amount of time she put in and the work she did. I do not see that in the schools where my children attended high school or at YU, where the administration gets very high salaries and spent money on all kinds of narishkeit, not on quality educational practices or on salaries to hire qualified teachers either.(I still give a portion of my tzedakah to my children's Yeshiva Day school even though I no longer live in that community)<br /><br />So, after I give my tzedakah each year, if I go away on Pesach with my family, I do not feel that I owe anyone an explanation or want to be told that my money would be better spent supporting yeshiva day schools. No one should be looking into my pocket and telling me how much more I am expected to give to schools with runaway spending habits and poor educational outcomes.Old Ladynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-1041350631838142092010-02-04T14:04:21.202-05:002010-02-04T14:04:21.202-05:00PROFK:
"yeshivas have always gone to strange...PROFK:<br /><br />"yeshivas have always gone to strangers to do their fundraising, both in the community and outside of it."<br /><br />those are voluntary donations<br /><br />"very worried that the community will not have money, time or energy to deal with seniors' concerns"<br /><br />justifiable concerns. many are screwed.<br /><br />"a shul, mikvah, yeshiva just to name a few"<br /><br />certain things are communal requirements that even fall into the category of כופין אותו, e.g., building a shul and buying sifre torah/nach (i think also errecting an eruv, but don't tell that to my neighbors).<br />i don't recall chinuch explicitly falling under the כופין אותו rubric, but even if it does, i doubt chazal's mandate for educating the poor envisioned anything even slighly approximating the educational infrastructure we have today. is there really a halachik imerative to support a communal pseudo-prep day school from nursery to age 18 (and beyond) for 8-10 hours a day?<br />in some regards MO has outdone the RW when it comes to historical revisionism in this regard.<br /><br />"There are a lot of grandparents who are already paying or helping out with the tuition load for their kids."<br /><br />great. one's primary responsibility when it comes to tzedaka are one's own relatives (עניי ביתך קודם).<br /><br />"Undoubtedly, there are going to be a few people, a rare few people, who take advantage of a community's willingness/obligation to take care of its own. But for the most part, those on tuition reduction aren't conning the system, no matter what others may be saying."<br /><br />i think you underestimate the extent. or we have a different definition of "take advantage."<br /><br />all this aside, you are definately a better person than i amLion of Zionhttp://agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-84304187897796491362010-02-04T13:45:36.998-05:002010-02-04T13:45:36.998-05:00or should i say the tzedakah aspect of taking.or should i say the tzedakah aspect of taking.Lion of Zionhttp://agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-75305604146381344942010-02-04T13:44:07.830-05:002010-02-04T13:44:07.830-05:00DAVE:
"Is it Tzedakah if you are compelled t...DAVE:<br /><br />"Is it Tzedakah if you are compelled to give it?"<br /><br />the rambam (i assume based on the gemara, but that's not where i saw it) is clear that a person who refuses to give tzedaka or who gives less than he is able to give is subject to כופין אותו by bet din.<br /><br />now of course a day school is not bet din and i think it is highly debatable whether day school is really considered tzedakah. but theoretically compulsion does not negate the tzedakah aspect of giving.Lion of Zionhttp://agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-46200197040061103902010-02-04T13:09:18.841-05:002010-02-04T13:09:18.841-05:00Is it Tzedakah if you are compelled to give it?
I...Is it Tzedakah if you are compelled to give it?<br /><br />If the schools charged tuition based on actual costs, and needs-based assistance were awarded through a separate organization, I think you'd see a lot less anger.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-40351541541427557992010-02-04T11:36:42.712-05:002010-02-04T11:36:42.712-05:00I was away yesterday until late into the night. Th...I was away yesterday until late into the night. This morning I open up the blog and see this thread. Maybe I should go away more often? :)<br /><br />I would like to answer a question while I'm here. "not one grandparent here has yet to explain why strangers have more of an obligation than they do to cover their grankids' tuition deficits (providing there is that ability)"<br /><br /> First, yeshivas have always gone to strangers to do their fundraising, both in the community and outside of it. It's the rare school that exists solely through monies donated by the parents. Stroll around Brooklyn and look at the names on those buildings. Most who donated the money aren't parents in those schools. Mostly school administrators have had to look elsewhere for the "big bucks." Unfortunately, a lot of those funding sources have cut down or dried up altogether, so yeshivas are stuck with raising more money from the school parents.<br /><br />Now to the word strangers. If you live in a community, use its resources, then you aren't a stranger to others in the community. You are, or at least should be, related through community achdus. Your community lives or dies through the actions and attitudes of all of its members. Do you actually know all of these people by name? Irrelevant. I, personally, don't know anyone who would move to a community that didn't have in place certain structures--a shul, mikvah, yeshiva just to name a few. If I move to that community I become responsible for the health of that community, just as all the others are. So let's ditch the word strangers; we are all of us partners in our communities, and helping out our partners is part of what we should do. <br /><br />An example: during the last financial turndown there were some in my community who were in danger of losing their homes. Not one person actually lost their home. The community pitched in, paid mortgages, put food on the table, donated to the local yeshivas to make up the shortfall. Did I know all of these people? No, but so what? We were all members of the same community.<br /><br />Now to grandparents. There are a lot of grandparents who are already paying or helping out with the tuition load for their kids. There are grandparents who helped out their kids with tuition but can't give as much now. There are grandparents who never had the money to be able to help out. There are grandparents who are retiring and with their own financial worries to take care of now. There are grandparents who look at the way the community is structured and are very worried that the community will not have money, time or energy to deal with seniors' concerns, so they had better take care of making sure they will have the money to get what they need in their older years. They listen with amazement at some of those in the community who say that older parents will be taken care of by their children. Those same children who are straining to pay yeshiva tuitions or who can't pay all the tuition? <br /><br />Undoubtedly, there are going to be a few people, a rare few people, who take advantage of a community's willingness/obligation to take care of its own. But for the most part, those on tuition reduction aren't conning the system, no matter what others may be saying.<br /><br /> I hope that you will never be in the position of the pain and embarrassment of having to go to a tuition committee and laying your life bare. But if that should happen I hope that your communities will understand and be sensitive to your needs. I hope that they will keep their mouths shut in making hurtful comments. If a person gives tzedaka in the sense of paying more so that others who cannot afford the tab can also send their children to yeshiva, but then spends a lot of time in loshon ho'rah speaking, the aveiroh cancels out the mitzvah.<br /><br />One of the ways that God judges us is in our relationships bein odom l'chaveiroh. It would be lovely if we could be judged positively in this area.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-77537638657284362442010-02-04T09:22:12.874-05:002010-02-04T09:22:12.874-05:00In reading exhaustive amounts of tuition comments ...In reading exhaustive amounts of tuition comments over the past several weeks, I can only come to the conclusion that people don't want yeshiva education ENOUGH. Sure, they want their kids and grandkids to go to yeshiva. But they would rather not pay as much as they have to. Yeshiva isn't a choice for most people - they have to do it, for social/religious reasons - and therefore, like heating your house, it doesn't feel like you're getting something for the money, the way you feel when you buy a nice piece of furniture or a computer, or a vacation. <br /><br />Those of us who grew up going to public school know that yeshiva is a CHOICE. People CHOOSE private school. When you CHOOSE to spend money on something, you should do it happily and willingly. If the community doesn't feel happy about spending money on yeshiva, there's a problem. I understand that costs are ridiculously high, but education happens to be expensive. That's why the government provides an education benefit - public school - to every resident who wants to make use of it.<br /><br />If we really truly believe in yeshiva education, it should come before every luxury, because it is THE biggest luxury of all. We should be thrilled to give our children this wonderful yeshiva education, if we really believe in it.<br /><br />I think the vast majority of the community believes in it, but not enough to want to spend their actual MONEY on it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-87956742427132737002010-02-04T09:11:48.573-05:002010-02-04T09:11:48.573-05:00They weren't happy Lion because on their books...They weren't happy Lion because on their books my kids were still not paying full tuition even though my donation made up any shortfall. They would have preferred that we give the money straight to the kids and let them pay the full tuition so their books would look better. Any accountants out there who would like to explain to these schools the IRS rulings and position on cash gifts? The administrator we dealt with has no business being an administrator. Getting smicha doesn't prepare you to be a skillful financial administrator. Neither does a BA in philosophy.Another viewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-27051566154834480482010-02-04T09:05:58.378-05:002010-02-04T09:05:58.378-05:00"They weren't even really happy that we w..."They weren't even really happy that we were giving checks directly to the schools and asking for charitable receipts for the checks."<br /><br />why do the care (assuming, as you explained, that it's legal). they should be grateful.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-71080848842742698162010-02-04T09:01:51.262-05:002010-02-04T09:01:51.262-05:00BRURIAH:
all your criticisms of our schools' ...BRURIAH:<br /><br />all your criticisms of our schools' financial model are valid. it needs to be fixed. but honestly i don't see that happening, and certainly not overnight.<br /><br />so in the meantime, not one grandparent here has yet to explain why strangers have more of an obligation than they do to cover their grankids' tuition deficits (providing there is that ability)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-69105547441440699552010-02-04T08:58:15.505-05:002010-02-04T08:58:15.505-05:00As a parent I did what I am supposed to do. I rais...As a parent I did what I am supposed to do. I raised my kids to know how to manage money. I also raised them to value a yeshiva education. And then these two values came into conflict. The schools where my grandchildren go keep raising and raising tuition. Even making good parnoseh my kids couldn't manage to pay the full tuition. So my husband and I do pay the difference, for all of our grandchildren, and none of my kids is on scholarship.<br /><br />And I really hate the schools where the kids send their kids. Why? Because they assumed that we could do this. Based on what? Yes we can but we know a lot of people who can't. When we first started out on this runaway train we asked the yeshivas if we could be of some service in helping them to cohntrol costs--both of us with lots of experience in the financial sector and accounting. That they didn't want. When we made some suggestions as to where they could control costs, that they didn't want. They weren't even really happy that we were giving checks directly to the schools and asking for charitable receipts for the checks. And yes before you ask if a grandparent gives money to a school that is considered a contribution and can be deducted for charity purposes on your taxes. Your grandchildren not claimed by you as a dependent on your taxes, even if that grandchild is getting an education in that school, you are not receiving any goods or services for the money you donate.<br /><br />But you know what? I hate that the schools have set themselves up so that grandparents are once again paying tuition. Just what are we getting for our money? Schools that can't add 2+2 and get four.anotherviewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-50737027630163596512010-02-04T08:39:23.385-05:002010-02-04T08:39:23.385-05:00Unfortunately, the underlying issue is jealousy. ...Unfortunately, the underlying issue is jealousy. Those of us (myself included) who thankfully are in the position to pay full tuition and maybe have a little left over for a small luxury (quick domestic trip, new car not used..) are jealous of those with real wealth (big house, nice vacation) as well as those on scholarship who seem to be living the same life as me. Now when someone on scholarship goes away for Pesach, no matter who pays, or has a bigger house b/c they bought before tuition and didnt take it into account and I am not able to, human nature takes over and it is too much. What I want is just one time for a principal or Chairman of the board to call me up and say thank you for doing it the right way.<br />Grandparents should not be responsible for tuition. Been there done that. They should be encouraged to donate to a school in appreciation for what they do for the grandchildren. But if they choose to give a gift of vacation, I have to overcome the jealousy and say "have a good time."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com