tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post5584311959210167651..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: Putting All Your Eggs in One BasketProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-38147225592772856872008-05-30T17:36:00.000-04:002008-05-30T17:36:00.000-04:00I made a statement on another blog that got all so...I made a statement on another blog that got all sorts of people yelling at me. People were saying that it is unfair to look at Rubashkin alone for using the illegal workers. All the meat plants in the country use them. I said that I thought that our hashkafah should be to go for a higher standard then "everyone else is doing it so I will too." Any one else remember the old hebrew national advertisement that said "We answer to a higher authority"? Shouldn't business ethics also be part of a kosher company?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-23093637182626405532008-05-30T17:06:00.000-04:002008-05-30T17:06:00.000-04:00The problem is that this isn't a free market. The ...The problem is that this isn't a free market. The market is controlled by the Hechsher. <BR/><BR/>See the comment from MLevin above. If the organizations had a consistent set of standards that were applied across the board (whether that included things like the business standards the Conservative movement has been calling for or not), that would open it up for something resembling a free market.<BR/><BR/>But as long as the OU (or your Hechsher of choice) adjust the rules continuously, or act to protect the business interests of groups they already work with (or just Jewish owned businesses in general), you aren't going to get the benefits.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-46748471981996391052008-05-30T14:52:00.000-04:002008-05-30T14:52:00.000-04:00No the OU kashrut division shouldn't be having to ...No the OU kashrut division shouldn't be having to police the places they go into for anything but kashrut k'halacha. But the OU itself and the Agudas Rabbanim and the Council of Young Israel and all the other rabbanic organizations should be making statements about how to conduct business if you are frum. For one thing, they could come straight out and say that places that want to apply for a hechsher on things they produce cannot be openly breaking US law. That's what got Rubashkin in trouble because they were hiring illegals. I'm no expert on dinei d'malchuso dinei but I'm pretty sure it applies to laws of the government. It's not speculation that the workers were illegals, that part is fact. So the rabbis who are sitting back and who are saying they need to see what the real facts are are being blind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-3271709519495603052008-05-30T13:28:00.000-04:002008-05-30T13:28:00.000-04:00The local supermarkets have always been cheaper th...The local supermarkets have always been cheaper then our local butcher when it came to fresh chicken. But now with the problem with Rubashkin and with Empire having raised its prices he got smart. He lowered his prices to $2.69 a pound for whole chicken and $2.49 for bottoms fresh. Store was packed. He's making more of a profit by charging less. Shechitah is an Eastern one and very frummy. I guess the lower price to ship more locally also means lower prices on the meat. I wonder if he'll still be smart when Rubashkin gets back up to speed and Empire has to lower back prices to compete.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-7647413388797536872008-05-30T12:24:00.000-04:002008-05-30T12:24:00.000-04:00*to now make them responsible for uninterrupted su...*to now make them responsible for uninterrupted supply as well? They are not a government agency, you know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-43872566462799578112008-05-30T12:20:00.000-04:002008-05-30T12:20:00.000-04:00Some out of the box thinking from someone whom you...Some out of the box thinking from someone whom you are accustomed to hearing that from...<BR/><BR/>This has to do with the changed circumstances, in the kosher (and non-kosher) chicken and meat business that have come about in recent decades. Local and small production is out, far away and big is in (with limited exceptions).<BR/><BR/>If things got difficult couldn't we still get some chickens and have them shechted and koshered locally? Are there sufficient local shochtim ready to go ? Are there still enough who know how to kosher a chicken (salting, etc.)? Prof. K do you know how to 'kosher' a chicken (I assume you do)? <BR/><BR/>By the way, I don't know that it's right to blame the supervision agency. They are busy enough with the kashrus end of things, you want to know make them responsible for uninterrupted supply as well? They are not a government agency, you know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-21318411400315975902008-05-30T10:50:00.000-04:002008-05-30T10:50:00.000-04:001. A few years back my Rabbi was giving a shiur an...1. A few years back my Rabbi was giving a shiur and he mentioned that today many health conscious goyim are into kosher meats. A large portion of kosher meat is sold to these people. One of the large chicken companies (it was either Tyson or Purdue, don’t remember) noticed that trend and decided to cash in on it. They did their research and hired butchers to start the process… Then rabbeim stepped in. They decided that it was a bad idea because it takes away parnasa from Jewish business… End result we are now on the verge of losing half of our meat supply.<BR/><BR/>2. Another reason why meat prices are through the roof is because of mandated ethanol in our gas. This mandate affected all meats, not just kosher ones. And milk, and grain, and …Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-62877191746571487342008-05-30T10:02:00.000-04:002008-05-30T10:02:00.000-04:00Anonymous is right in general but if what is inter...Anonymous is right in general but if what is interfering with the supply cycle is systemic rather than idiosyncratic then the normal supply/demand cycle won't work correctly. I think maybe that is what ProfK is getting at. Unless you study the interruption you will not know if it is idiosyncratic or if it represents a problem that will affect the entire system for that product.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-72862482745070594162008-05-30T09:53:00.000-04:002008-05-30T09:53:00.000-04:00I don't see why this is a huge deal - free marke...I don't see why this is a huge deal - free markets are generally self-correcting. If supply continues to be constrained and demand remains constant, there will be a strong incentive for others to enter the market, thereby increasing supply.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-26681662977608652812008-05-30T09:41:00.000-04:002008-05-30T09:41:00.000-04:00MII,Let's not mix "tzitzis and matzas" as my mom w...MII,<BR/>Let's not mix "tzitzis and matzas" as my mom would say. I did not make this the number one issue that our leadership should be addressing. The problem is that they never thought about it at all, despite there having been some signs that a problem was developing.<BR/><BR/>One of the agencies giving the hechsher to the plant is now in negotiations (or perhaps already past that) with another kosher supplier to expand to shechting meat not just chickens. <BR/><BR/>Any time a food supply is interrupted because of a lack of planning for future exigencies there needs to be discussion of how to avoid this from happening in the future, and a discussion of why it happened to begin with. <BR/><BR/>Sure, we will have to make do with less meat and chicken until things get back to normal. Assuming they get back to normal. And without some real discussion with those who provide kosher products such as meat, just what might happen if the suppliers who are left also run into problems? Are you willing to do without any meat at all? Me, personally, no, I'm not willing to do without meat at all. If that is your preference then fine, but it is not the preference of large numbers of the rest of us.<BR/><BR/> If this can happen to the largest supplier what makes you think that it could not happen to the smaller suppliers as well?ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-38931419196761884452008-05-30T09:11:00.000-04:002008-05-30T09:11:00.000-04:00This is a disaster that our leadership should have...This is a disaster that our leadership should have been worried about? More so than shidduchim, child abuse, special needs children, tuition, conversion, and half a dozen more I could think of? We're talking about a temporary shortage of meat. And what do you think the leadership could have done, get into the meat business? With the economic situation developing the way it is I think many of us will have to get used to eating a lot less meat.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-60529695521226104932008-05-30T08:53:00.000-04:002008-05-30T08:53:00.000-04:00You are making an excellent point here. Many of th...You are making an excellent point here. Many of them. If the vaccines we use were produced by only two plants the government would take extra care to see to it that those two plants did not have problems that could result in the supply being cut in half.<BR/><BR/>Meat is not vaccines but the principle is the same. Take the discussion out of the ethical and put it into the practical. What do we have to demand of producers so that the supply will not be cut in half? Unfortunately the discussion has already become politicized and the losers in this political wrangling are, as usual, the kosher consumers. Maybe when they don't get their flanken in their cholent they will finally be moved to act.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com