tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post5191108184842835551..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: What is a Necessity?ProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-78056504523709850952010-09-02T03:22:48.337-04:002010-09-02T03:22:48.337-04:00Anon:
Of course I was referring to bklyn/queens. ...Anon:<br /><br />Of course I was referring to bklyn/queens. You mean Jews live in other areas? specifically my numbers were for marine park, which is basically the most affordable jewish neighborhood I know of in Brooklyn (and I don't think you'll get that much cheaper in most of NYC)<br /><br />Who said anything about an *illegal* basement?<br /><br />In any case I'm not sure I see your point. You are still paying or putting aside 1000 a month above rental income (does this include real estate and rental income taxes?) that could be used for rent instead. And what about all the money that went for the downpayment? Or current equity?<br /><br />As far as the assumption you warn against, of course not all homeowners require tuition assistance, but where I live it is a given that you have to buy a home before your first kid enters school in order to maximize ability to get tuition assistance.<br /><br />And I still don't understand your comment about the savings value of owning a home.LoZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-4040499366593479732010-09-01T17:00:09.239-04:002010-09-01T17:00:09.239-04:00I see the points Tesyaa and profk are making. Both...I see the points Tesyaa and profk are making. Both have some merit. I tend to agree more with tesyaa here, but I would say there are a few yeshivah "systems." obviously the MO "system" is not the same as the Chasisic system.<br /><br />I will also add based on my experience that the schools are mor than happy to claim they are part of a system in order to deflect criticism. <br /><br />Also based on experience, very often a school will make a decision based not on what is best for the students, school or parents, but to conform to other local schools. So while there is certainly no official hierarchal jewish system, there is nonetheless a peer-pressure-driven one.LoZhttp://Agmk.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-24935804584257925972010-09-01T15:54:22.580-04:002010-09-01T15:54:22.580-04:00ProfK,
I think you're taking my comment out o...ProfK,<br /><br />I think you're taking my comment out of context. To be clear, I think there IS a system. It's just a lousy, broken system. They choose to conform and be uniform for nonsense at best and stuff that upsets parents at worst. And, in fact, they do conform on "hiring qualifications, academic standards, purchasing, insurance, benefits, etc." - they conform by all having low or no standards and no desire to save any money.<br /><br />By the way (I guess this is mostly directed at Al), the reason I mentioned purchasing is because even though it is such a small portion of the budget, it's also the easiest thing to get together with another school on. The fact that the schools don't do this just shows that they uniformly don't care about this kind of stuff.<br /><br />Point is, you're saying the same thing as everyone else. You look at the things you'd like the schools to do better, recognize that no one is forcing them to do it better and conclude that there is no system. You prefer to see each school as a fiefdom that does what it will. Certainly that is true. But, even with each school officially being a fiefdom, there is remarkable conformity between them. If anything, the "system" is that these remarkably similar schools all try to present themselves as being genuinely different on specious grounds, at best. So, even though they all do things almost identically, offer the same educational quality, etc. you have parents clamoring about the "jacket school" and the "school that makes kids come in on Sunday" and the "school that separates genders in 2nd grade vs the school that separates genders in 4th grade."<br /><br />This is your system.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-63546009559645411112010-09-01T15:42:44.346-04:002010-09-01T15:42:44.346-04:00You're missing something here Tesyaa. The day ...You're missing something here Tesyaa. The day before yom tov off and the pesach schedule aren't about the kids and the parents mostly. They are about the teachers and staff. It's a perk they get for teaching in yeshiva. Won't say I like it but what if the teachers didn't get that time off? They just might ask for more money in salary and then your tuition would go up. <br /><br />It's also a little bit about families that are traveling around before a yom tov. Plenty of families that don't stay home but go to their parents or other family or friends. If they had school erev yom tov then a lot of kids would be missing and the teachers would just have to teach the same material all over again after yom tov because a lot of the class would have missed it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-30152893164398136892010-09-01T15:19:50.119-04:002010-09-01T15:19:50.119-04:00Yes. If it weren't a "system" you w...Yes. If it weren't a "system" you would have a choice of schools with different vacation times. One school could specifically compete by having a "job friendly" or "family friendly" schedule (including a half day of school, at least, on erev yom tov, and no school on major legal holidays). Another school could compete by having a "least secular influence" schedule in which ALL secular holidays maintain a full day - this would cater to parents who work in Jewish owned businesses and want to show that they don't recognize legal holidays. I'm very serious. Why do all the schools close 3-5 days before Pesach, if it's not at least an unofficial agreement? Please tell me.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-85631095298489525532010-09-01T14:56:07.625-04:002010-09-01T14:56:07.625-04:00Mimi,
I care very much. I think that the whole s...Mimi,<br /><br />I care very much. I think that the whole system is bonkers and broken. I'm suggesting that PEJE, in Florida CEJE (and I assume equivalent groups up North) make this comprise a system.<br /><br />I am suggesting that the system is equally inconvenient and disinterested in parental concerns.<br /><br />Put it this way, the Independent Schools down here fight tooth and nail for mind share and excellence. They all maintain a specific brand, one claims elite status, one accessibility to parents, etc., and they all compete. Nobody would confuse them with a system, as they all compete with each other and the public school system for cash and bodies.<br /><br />The Day Schools, OTOH, all collude with each other to be relatively similar. The calendars are pushed to mostly match. The administrative pay packages are pretty similar in an area (look at the 990s) and PEJE has conventions for board members to attend, where they learn to run identical schools, and PEJE has conventions for admins, where they learn to run identical schools. Interested in adopting a child and having them converted? RCA guidelines require you to pledge to send your children to a private Jewish Day School/Yeshiva for 12 years. How is that not a system?<br /><br />Like I said, the Independents may be part of accrediting institutions, but they compete with each other for students and staff. The Day Schools are not competing with each other, with a setup designed to collude and not compete.<br /><br />The lack of family time because of convoluted schedules is part of what makes this a system. They tell you what to do, where to send your other children, how to run your household in the summer, etc. Pointing to a few school days different and saying "see, it's not a system, it's autonomous schools" is making a mountain out of a molehill.<br /><br />There are 13 days of Yom Tov a year. The average American has 10 days of Vacation Time. Once you add a single extra "day off" you've made it impossible for two spouses to work full time without domestic help.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-24752188328297231472010-09-01T14:37:36.660-04:002010-09-01T14:37:36.660-04:00I'm glad Al that you have what must be an incr...I'm glad Al that you have what must be an incredible vacation day package at your job so that a day here or there won't make a difference to you or your kids. Guess what? Not all of us are that lucky.<br /><br />My job gives us off for Christmas and New Years and memorial day and election day. Those are four days my kids have school, meaning time I could have spent with them isn't there because they aren't there. And then the schools give off time which coincides with no days a business would give off, meaning I'm working, my kids are off and not only don't I get to spend time with them but I have to make child care arrangements because I can't be there. Please let's not mock or knock a day or two here and there--if you don't care then fine, but there are plenty like me who care.Miminoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-77519948311612033292010-09-01T14:23:00.431-04:002010-09-01T14:23:00.431-04:00JS,
Looks my posting on the system is going to be ...JS,<br />Looks my posting on the system is going to be coming out in bits and pieces here. You hit on the head why I am arguing that we don't have a real system when you said "Instead of uniformity in hiring qualifications, academic standards, purchasing, insurance, benefits, etc., it's uniformity in hashkafa," Because there is no system in place for these "practical" items every school can basically do what it wants, at a cost of millions of wasted dollars. Because there is no central authority to say yea or nay, any school that wants to build a mega-building costing mega-millions can do so and then expect that the parents will pick up the bill. Because there is no real system in place, no central board, schools in one geographic area spend millions on "specialty" personnel, on curriculum development, on certain limited duty supervisors, each school duplicating these jobs. A real system would eliminate the duplication, resulting in mega savings.<br /><br />When I use the term "school system" I am not referring to a shared hashkafic philosophy but to the nuts and bolts of providing an education.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-11142416667339652752010-09-01T14:22:31.775-04:002010-09-01T14:22:31.775-04:00What is this fetish with group buying of commodity...What is this fetish with group buying of commodity products? These supplies comprise maybe 4% of the school budget, and how much do you expect to save with a group purchase (you're already decent sized accounts), another 5% of the purchase price? Congratulations, you've cut your school's operating budget by 0.2%.<br /><br />I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't try to save money, but to suggest that this is the difference between a "system" and an autonomous school is silly.<br /><br />Does anyone "set the calendar?" Nope. Are the calendars different? Sure, 1-2 days here or there, but no big deal. Five years ago, the MO schools all were closed Christmas and New Years, now they are all open Christmas, and the RW schools are open on New Years. Who cares?<br /><br />The public schools here all share a calendar by county, different counties, different calendars. There is absolutely a system because the money flow encourages conformity on areas that matter.<br /><br />Apprently, whether you pay a fortune for security/janitorial to make a point of being open on Christmas (the point of which I am not sure, how many of you would like a non-Jewish employer to REQUIRE you to be there on Yom Tov) is more significant than teacher pay levels, curricula, and general structure, which is remarkably similar across the spectrum.<br /><br />The things you consider major differences are all pretty minor. Every school is open on minor national holidays, closed on Yom Tov, closed the day before Yom Tov, and sometimes the day after. None of the schools are open on Chol Hamoed anymore. So the big calendar differences are which week in January/February you close for a week and whether you get travel days around Shavuot?!?Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82126217915274333282010-09-01T10:42:57.726-04:002010-09-01T10:42:57.726-04:00I agree with tesyaa on this issue of a "syste...I agree with tesyaa on this issue of a "system." But, I'm not really sure why it matters. It seems like you're just wrangling about whether there is a hierarchy above the local schools that sets a uniform policy. Why does that matter? Even without such an organization, the schools do a darn good job of uniformity. The problem is, it's always in areas that don't matter.<br /><br />Instead of uniformity in hiring qualifications, academic standards, purchasing, insurance, benefits, etc., it's uniformity in hashkafa, ridiculous requirements on parents, over the top tznius requirements, everyone must go to Israel, everyone must got to sleepaway camps, etc. Sure you have differences between schools, but it's amazing how even the schools everyone insists are so incredibly different are really remarkably the same.<br /><br />Perhaps this isn't true when you look at the far left and the far right of the yeshivas, but you tell me what the differences are between Modern Orthodox yeshivas, for example? The people on 200kchump's blog spend hours debating whether YNJ in Bergen County is "right wing" or "chareidi-lite" because the boys have to wear a jacket during davening after they are bar mitzvahed. Seriously? This is the big difference?<br /><br />The schools are so uniform we pick up on nonsensical differences and pretend they're all different. They are far more uniform than people want to admit and even without an overseeing authority, they behave as if they are part of a system.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-33828093042563030392010-09-01T10:37:41.357-04:002010-09-01T10:37:41.357-04:00Tesyaa,
I don't know where you live so can...Tesyaa,<br /><br />I don't know where you live so can't speak to what the state/district requirements are for your area. I can speak, based on experience with the state board of ed and board or regents for the state of NY. In NY ALL schools have the same graduation requirements as set by the state boards--either you meet these requirements or you don't get a diploma, a diploma which is not granted by any individual school but which is granted by the state.<br /><br />In NY state age requirements are set by the state, not the individual schools, and the entrance and exit ages are the same across the entire state system.<br /><br />All public schools within a system must meet the minimum required number of hours/days as set by the state. If a school applies to the state it may add a few days for extras such as trips and presentations.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-28214475085128059362010-09-01T10:32:28.964-04:002010-09-01T10:32:28.964-04:00You will note that I am not claiming that the publ...You will note that I am not claiming that the public school system and the yeshiva "system" are identical. They are not organized in the same way or to the same extent. But it's disingenuous to say that MOST yeshivot don't BEHAVE like they're part of an unofficial system. (Naturally there are outliers, but I personally wouldn't use outliers to prove a point). If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-5419484263023823022010-09-01T10:17:33.161-04:002010-09-01T10:17:33.161-04:00Just not true.
Public schools DON'T all have ...Just not true.<br /><br />Public schools DON'T all have the same hours.<br /><br />They DON'T all have the same graduation requirements.<br /><br />They DON'T all have the same age cutoffs.<br /><br />They vary greatly even within a district, depending on the staff. In my district some elementary school principals were shuffled, and you should have heard the outcry. There are good administrators and not-so-good administrators, and that impacts schools greatly.<br /><br />Yes - they all have the same entrance requirement - residency in the district. (A beautiful thing). <br /><br />Give me a break. I understand you are trying to make a point, and you have promised a post on that subject, but you undermine yourself when you pick and choose facts and take things out of context. You're better than that.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-35604361699078765402010-09-01T10:11:23.795-04:002010-09-01T10:11:23.795-04:00Tesyaa,
I'm not ignoring your statement about...Tesyaa,<br /><br />I'm not ignoring your statement about not all public schools being monolithic. Let me put it this way. Those public schools ARE monolithic in a systemic way--they all have the same entrance requirements, the same age requirements, the same policy for hiring and firing, the same salary structure, the same basic course requirements,the same graduation requirements, the same hours, and their purchasing is done through the system, not through each school individually striking bargains with suppliers. They are all free and they are all open to everyone in a district. (Yes, there are a few exceptions like the Bronx High School of Science). <br /><br />Yes, some are better schools than others, but they are all part of the same system and what unites them is greater than what separates them. Also key is that individual schools within the system cannot unilaterally make changes to how they are run--the Board of Ed that supervises all the schools in the system is the only entity that can approve such changes. Example: one high school in the system could not decide on its own that English is overtaught and decide to require only two courses in English for graduation.<br /><br />The various yeshivas around the country have a small handful of professional organizations that they can join which can offer some help in programming or some assistance in procuring teaching personnel, but membership is not required. Only about half the yeshivas in the country join Torah U'mesorah. Those that do join are not contractually bound to teach/educate/perform in the particular manner that Torah U'mesorah recommends. There is no force of law behind what Torah U'mesorah recommends. Nor are there any Jewish community requirements that a school be a Torah U'mesorah member. Torah U'mesorah is a resource--it is not a system, and it has no power to set standards for all yeshivot.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-20626961629722220632010-09-01T09:37:40.973-04:002010-09-01T09:37:40.973-04:00ProfK - my only argument (which you keep on ignori...ProfK - my only argument (which you keep on ignoring) is that public schools, even within a state, are no more monolithic than yeshivot. There are schools in Texas that teach creationism (or try to). There are different schedules in every district in NJ. Don't say that because "Bais Yaakovs aren't identical" that there's not a system, while assuming public schools are all the same. (You went to public school, if I recall. Don't you remember that they're far from identical?) And what is the role of Torah Umesorah if not to determine guidelines and standards?tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-33141879437549645452010-09-01T07:48:25.653-04:002010-09-01T07:48:25.653-04:00Al,
Sorry, but your argument is not persuasive. T...Al,<br />Sorry, but your argument is not persuasive. The fact that Florida has CAJE for the South Florida day schools does not mean there is a full unified yeshiva educational system that covers all yeshivas. You mention that salary structure and tenure is set for the CAJE schools. Does CAJE also set the calendar that all schools in its supposed system have to follow? Does it give out a curriculum that all schools belonging to it have to follow completely? Does it negotiate purchasing for all supplies used by all its member schools? Does it make the final decision as to whether or not a school can make additions, buy additional property and at what price? Is it the final authority when a parent has a problem with an individual school belonging to CAJE? Does it set admission standards for all the schools that belong to it? Is what can be offered as extra curricular activities up to CAJE or up to the individual schools? Merely belonging to an organization and following a few of that organization's guidelines does not a school system make.<br /><br />Re textbooks, textbooks for use in ALL schools in NY are under the NYSTL system--New York State Textbook Law. The state provides X number of textbooks for free to the schools in the state--all schools in the state. However, the schools can only choose from the pre-approved NYSTL list. Any books they choose to buy that aren't on that list they pay for. Most schools, including the yeshivas, choose to stay within the NYSTL lists and get their books for free. There are some yeshivas in the NY area which choose to take virtually none of the NYSTL books, particularly in the English studies area. They buy, on their own dime, the books from the Jewish publishers they will allow. All states have a similar entity in place--if textbooks seem similar from one yeshiva to another across the country that's not because there is a yeshiva system in place but b ecause there is a state system of education in place.<br /><br />Go to the larger marketplace for education--New York--and you will find that all yeshivas in any given community or geographic area are not unified by an official system. Chabad schools follow the Chabad system. Day schools aren't identical in any systemic way. Chasidishe yeshivas each follow the practice of their own brand of chassidus. Litvishe yeshivas pretty much do what they want for their individual schools. Not all the Bais Yaakov schools are identical in practices.<br /><br />Flatbush yeshiva is right around the corner from a whole bunch of other yeshivas radically different from it. For some people in these other yeshivas Flatbush HAS broken the rules of "orthodoxy" and they don't consider it as a "frum" place. Let's not even consider how Flatbush might view some of these other yeshivas. What community standard?<br /><br />My point still stands--while there may be a few schools in a few areas or instances that follow one organized plan, there is not a system that covers Jewish education in place.<br /><br />Because there are a few similarities among some yeshivas here and there does not mean that a system of yeshiva education is in place.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-5340742600323790892010-08-31T23:12:59.851-04:002010-08-31T23:12:59.851-04:00Independent? Are you all on drugs?!?
So, there i...Independent? Are you all on drugs?!?<br /><br />So, there is <a href="http://www.peje.org/" rel="nofollow">PEJE</a> which organized conferences to make certain that everyone is doing roughly the same thing, and puts out guidelines for the schools to follow.<br /><br />Down here in Florida, we have <a href="http://www.caje-miami.org/index.cfm" rel="nofollow">CAJE</a> which goes as far as to unify salaries and tenure structures for the South Florida Day School market.<br /><br />National organizations flow money to you if you do things a certain way, and not others. So to pretend that these are all these floating autonomous schools is a joke.<br /><br />The curriculums are tweaked, but it's not like these schools build their own, they buy canned solutions from companies that cater to Day Schools. The same consulting organizations are sending everyone on the same stupid path, and the books come from the same handful of publishers.<br /><br />Sure there are differences, but MINOR compared to the similarities.<br /><br />A school that drastically broke from the community standard would quickly be dubbed "not Orthodox" and therefore not suitable for Converts or their children, and anyone who cares what the Rabbi says.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82104034590817438752010-08-31T09:24:38.643-04:002010-08-31T09:24:38.643-04:00That there are some similarities in some yeshivas ...<i>That there are some similarities in some yeshivas can be ascribed to their having a Jewish philosophy as a founding principle rather than to their being part of a system.</i><br /><br />I understand this viewpoint; however, yeshivas as they exist in America today are very different than any method of Jewish education that existed prior to the 20th century, despite the fact that Jewish philosophy has been around so much longer. Also, yeshivot in Israel are run much differently than American yeshivot, despite shared Jewish philosophy and principles. While I agree that American yeshivot are independent entities, many collaborate to set educational and business practices. It's a loose, unofficial "system".tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-25971402041017535032010-08-31T09:12:40.205-04:002010-08-31T09:12:40.205-04:00Tesyaa,
Yes, individual schools within a public sc...Tesyaa,<br />Yes, individual schools within a public school system may vary in some areas, based mostly on how deep or broad the tax base is in the specific sub-area where a school is located. However, all schools in any given school system "answer to a higher authority." The school system and its board make all the decisions about what must be taught, who can be hired, school opening and closing days, what books are acceptable for use, what extras can be offered etc. That system, in turn, must meet the requirements of the state school authority. Schools which want to add additional components have to apply to the school system board for a variance. Individual schools can't make those decisions all on their own.<br /><br />The yeshivas have no such "higher authority" that organizes all schools in a given area. While they might have to meet certain state requirements, we all know how well that works out in some of the yeshivas. Yeshivas are autonomous entities rather than parts of a system. That there are some similarities in some yeshivas can be ascribed to their having a Jewish philosophy as a founding principle rather than to their being part of a system.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-69495791685875988612010-08-31T08:57:18.138-04:002010-08-31T08:57:18.138-04:00ProfK - of course there are differences, but publi...ProfK - of course there are differences, but public schools are FAR from monolithic also. Why do people make such effort to live in a certain town or even a certain district within a town? Yet public schools all have certain features in common (such as employing only certified staff), just as American yeshivas share many features in common.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-86650988280378919972010-08-31T08:41:55.903-04:002010-08-31T08:41:55.903-04:00Tesyaa and Orthonomics,
I'm going to leave a ...Tesyaa and Orthonomics,<br /><br />I'm going to leave a fuller response to your comments to the upcoming posting on yeshiva "systems" but I'll respond briefly now.<br /><br />Orthonomics,<br />You say "It is a "system" in so far as much as a school that broke with accepted practice would loose a great amount of support, lay and communal." And it is not one system precisely because there are already huge numbers of schools in our communities whose accepted practices differ considerably one from the other, with no loss of support of any kind.<br /><br />Tesyaa,<br />You say"The yeshiva "system" may not be an official "system", but all schools have important features in common: scholarships for those who "can't afford" tuition; and refusal to turn away families that can't pay. While hashkafos may vary, all have similar curricula. While schedules may differ, all give off erev yom tov and insist on holding school on Christmas and New Year's.<br /><br />All schools do NOT have similar features in common, except perhaps that all schools MAY offer tuition reduction for those who can't pay. Their curricula are in no way similar across the yeshiva board. Do you really believe that Flatbush Yeshiva, The Mir, Chofetz Chaim, JEC, TAG etc. etc. offer similar curricula? They do not. Do you believe that all the yeshivas outside of the NYC area offer the same curricula as those schools in the NYC area? They do not. Re the school attendance on Christmas and New Years day, yes there are some schools which do not have classes on New Years Day. And some schools which have only limudei kodesh classes in the morning on Thanksgiving but have no secular classes in the afternoon.<br /><br />That some schools may share some characteristics, or one characteristic, at some times and not at others does not a system make.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-76945979855278536782010-08-31T08:05:40.112-04:002010-08-31T08:05:40.112-04:00Oh and I forgot to add that I pay full tuition for...Oh and I forgot to add that I pay full tuition for my kids in school, two of them now. People shouldn't assume that because you own a house you aren't paying full tuition. Of course the yeshiva tuition we pay is way lower then what I hear about elsewhere--think JFS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-6086918810094519542010-08-31T08:02:17.854-04:002010-08-31T08:02:17.854-04:00I don't know where you live LoZ but from the f...I don't know where you live LoZ but from the figures you are giving I'd have to guess Brooklyn or certain parts of Queens. For one thing the duplex we bought cost us $389K not 500K. For another, this is not the Brooklyn type shlacky basement illegal apartment. The rental is a full two bedroom, legal, and about 680 square feet. There are separate utility meters so the tenant pays their own gas and electric. We do pay all the water usage for the house. Rent is $1140 for the tenant. Thanks to refinancing because of lower mortgage rates available now, we pay $1300 a month to the mortgage. That's only $160 out of my pocket towards the mortgage. Sure I have other expenses for the house also but they don't come to more than $1000 per month and that includes money put aside in case of repairs and insurance also. For that 1000 a month we live in a three bedroom house, have a living room, dining room, kitchen, 2 bathrooms, a den and a small basement and a garage and a small yard in the back, still big enough for playing and a sukkah and anything else we want it for.<br /><br />There are plenty of places in the nyc area that are lower in price for homes like the one we bought. Or go even further out of town and the prices can really drop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-38163026436939228892010-08-30T22:26:21.362-04:002010-08-30T22:26:21.362-04:00Families A & B both make $80,000/year and have...Families A & B both make $80,000/year and have four children. <br /><br />Family A owns their home, and each month their mortgage payment includes $300 in Principal and $800 in Interest.<br /><br />Family B rents their apartment, pays $800/mo in rent and puts $300 in their 401(k).<br /><br />Families A & B apply for scholarship as kid #2 enters school. Will the scholarship committee demand family A sell their home? Will they demand that Family B stops putting $300 in their 401(k)?<br /><br />Why is Family A's $300 "savings" shielded and Family B's is not? Does this mean that the system encourages more home ownership?<br /><br />I know families that live in our community, pay "reduced dues" to the Shul, and pay nearly nothing for the day school. Those families are often in 3/4 Bedroom homes, leverages to the hilt (and now upside and "trapped" without trashing their credit). Should that family get a tuition discount?<br /><br />Now we aren't even worried about shelter, now we are worried about bank profits and their credit rating?<br /><br />Should that family move to a cheaper community? Teaneck -> Monsey (or Lakewood, or Passaic) for example? Or Miami Beach -> North Miami Beach?<br /><br />If a family doesn't have enough income to have their size family and their size home, why should the community subsidize them?<br /><br />These families would be mortified if the school told them to get their food from the Kosher Food Bank and pay more tuition, but scholarship or "reduced dues" isn't quite the same level of embarrassment as realizing your neighbors subsidize your groceries.<br /><br />Is it fair that families are spending every dime to pay tuition, and then their kids are going to cheaper colleges, when some families have college funds paid for by grandparents and get tuition assistance? Is any of this fair?<br /><br />And none of this is conning the schools, just perverse incentives.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-18923829287525493502010-08-30T18:18:33.651-04:002010-08-30T18:18:33.651-04:00It is a "system" in so far as much as a ...It is a "system" in so far as much as a school that broke with accepted practice would loose a great amount of support, lay and communal.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.com