tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post4992490491460793064..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: Take Cover! A Pre-Purim RantProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-39949927389962463182008-03-19T01:37:00.000-04:002008-03-19T01:37:00.000-04:00When our Rav sent out his "Halach -gram" for Purim...When our Rav sent out his "Halach -gram" for Purim in bold capitol letters were "it is assur to get drunk on Purim". He has publicly stated this and has spent much time trying to convince the "bachorim" that is assur also. His problem is the more right wing the yeshiva, the more the tendency towards drinking. many families in our shul send to single sex boys schools,including himself. Intrestingly enough, my kids elem. school,MO, has been teaching that it is assur and an avera to get drunk on Purim. I was estatic to hear this from my 2nd grader and heard it parrotted from his older siblings. There is hope.<BR/>Have a wonderful Purim. B'samach!queeniesmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01019952170168937114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-72700845650675921862008-03-16T06:13:00.000-04:002008-03-16T06:13:00.000-04:00I plan to put up a sign informing anyone who comes...I plan to put up a sign informing anyone who comes to my door that if they are drunk they will be shown back to the door. NO EXCEPTIONS.<BR/><BR/>Here is info on how to give a field sobriety test: <BR/>http://www.fieldsobrietytests.org/Zach Kessinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276155117746098546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-15806252169537139382008-02-25T12:50:00.000-05:002008-02-25T12:50:00.000-05:00Of course they can't say it Scraps. They're too pl...Of course they can't say it Scraps. They're too plastered to do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-48995173422109968802008-02-25T11:23:00.000-05:002008-02-25T11:23:00.000-05:00I'm also from "chutz la'aretz", and honestly, I ne...I'm also from "chutz la'aretz", and honestly, I never even heard of getting drunk on Purim until I left home for high school. And since I went home for Purim every year of high school, I never witnessed it until I went away for seminary. It absolutely disgusts me the way people use Purim as an excuse to get totally plastered--can you say "naval bi'rshus haTorah"?! Ugh.Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-79392582581410301952008-02-25T10:51:00.000-05:002008-02-25T10:51:00.000-05:00If someone is depending on alcohol to give them si...If someone is depending on alcohol to give them simcha then we have a lot bigger problem then just Purim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-57505009397119444062008-02-25T10:39:00.000-05:002008-02-25T10:39:00.000-05:00I see a lot of comments about yeshivas and parents...I see a lot of comments about yeshivas and parents but where is there a call for the rabbis of shuls to get up and tell their congregants that drinking is a problem on Purim? Does the OU send out a letter to its member shuls that rabbis should discuss this? How about the Young Israel? We already know that the Aguda hasn't done this--why not? And where are the colleges? Does YU put it in writing to its students that drinking to become drunk is not what Purim is about? How about Touro? The involvement of these groups would also make a difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-57298932601328573322008-02-25T00:51:00.000-05:002008-02-25T00:51:00.000-05:00This seems to be one area where out of town handle...<I>This seems to be one area where out of town handles things better then in NY.</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely. But even out of town has its shades. Little out of town=rarely an issues. Bigger out of town community=watch your children carefully. Big out of town community=take some decisive action.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-83123386199484008912008-02-24T10:45:00.000-05:002008-02-24T10:45:00.000-05:00Kalman, welcome. As a displaced out-of-towner mys...Kalman, welcome. As a displaced out-of-towner myself I always welcome any views from "chutz la'aretz." I think you've made a very important point regarding the Purim seudah. In the larger urban areas, particularly those with one or more yeshiva gedola, the seudah has morphed into being just one of many Purim "celebrations." So much else is going on or is available that the seudah is no longer center stage.<BR/><BR/>My sister and I alternate having seudah. As the kids got older it became harder and harder to settle on what time seudah would be because of all the other activities that were also becoming "necessary." Or having to end seudah by a certain time so that the boys could make it to their yeshiva "celebrations."<BR/><BR/>For me, it's way past time to "take back" Purim and put the emphasis back where it belongs.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-2816317453093420412008-02-24T02:17:00.000-05:002008-02-24T02:17:00.000-05:00I've been reading your last postings with a lot of...I've been reading your last postings with a lot of interest mostly because of how different what you are writing about is from where I live. Purim here is pretty much an at-home holiday. You go to shul for the megillah, you deliver some shalach monos but the big thing is the seudah at home. Sure there are people who drink at the seudah but that stays private and pretty much you don't hear about people getting drunk either. You sure don't see people who are obviously drunk on the streets. The kids may deliver shalach monos to their teachers and rebbes but no rebbes would dare serve alcohol to their students, not if they wanted to keep their jobs. This seems to be one area where out of town handles things better then in NY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-13779301750255274192008-02-24T00:31:00.000-05:002008-02-24T00:31:00.000-05:00You have one woman here who is listening and plans...You have one woman here who is listening and plans on doing something. With the seudah coming so close to shabbos I already told my boys there will be no drinking at the seudah. None. I want them wide awake and davening for shabbos with the proper kavonoh. And I'm already thinking of how to enforce the no drinking next year when I won't have shabbos as a weapon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-44625870624992316212008-02-23T21:03:00.000-05:002008-02-23T21:03:00.000-05:00Mike S has a good point. Maybe the first step we ...Mike S has a good point. Maybe the first step we could all take is that there should be no hard liquour anywhere on Purim. I remember years ago my father saying that mixing different types of alcohol by drinking one and then another type is when people get really drunk and then nauseated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-61576525948804344462008-02-23T20:42:00.000-05:002008-02-23T20:42:00.000-05:00Wondering--You cannot daven or say b'rachot while ...Wondering--You cannot daven or say b'rachot while drunk.<BR/><BR/>Prof K.,<BR/><BR/>I am entirely on your side.<BR/><BR/>I note that the Rabbis are quite puzzled by the statement in the gemara about "ad lo yada," and have difficulty understanding how that can be permissible, much less obligitory. Thus, the <I>Aruch HaShulchan</I> devotes three long paragraphs to the various options of what that means: Drink a little more than usual and fall asleep, there may have been some song that one couldn't keep straight if a little tipsy, it means not be able to recite "Asher Heini" completely without stumbling, the halacha doesn't follow the gemara about <I>ad lo yada</I> (The Rambam never uses the phrase) but concedes than noe of the explanations is fully nsatisfactory. <BR/>His last paragraph is(stuff in parethesis is my clarification) : "However, Our teacher, the Beit Yosef, in his major work (i.e. the Peirush on the Tur) writes in the name of <I>Orchot Chayim</I> 'A man must drink on Purim, not so that he gets drunk, since drunkenness is a serious sin and, worse than that, leads to ilicit sexual relations and bloodshed and many other sins besides. Rather, he should drink a little more than his custom.' However, it is difficult, because it doesn't explain 'ad lo yada' and if he means one of the above explanations (most of which I cited above) why does he write in the Shulcan Aruch clearly implying drunkenness, and it requires investigation. An perhaps he meand <I>ad, v'lo ad b'clal</I> i.e. up to but not including drunkenness. <B>In practice, one should stay far away from drunkenness and expecially from distilled spirits, which cause one to vomit when drunk, just drink a little more than usual and sleep a little.</B>"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82614691712421039032008-02-23T19:27:00.000-05:002008-02-23T19:27:00.000-05:00No one has mentioned it and I'm really wondering. ...No one has mentioned it and I'm really wondering. If you are drunk can you make a brocha or daven? Can you be counted for a minyan if you are not with your full seichel? If you are just mouthing words you aren't really aware of, or maybe skip some of those words and don't realize it?<BR/><BR/>We were for seudah by a friend's house and went to chap a minyin. The aroma in the shul was enough that if someone had lit a match the shul would have blown up. Were those people really davening? Did what they said count?<BR/><BR/>I remember hearing that you can't count a blind person for a minyin. Isn't a drunk person also disabled?<BR/><BR/>If anyone knows please answer. If yes, then maybe a rosh yeshive needs to make this public.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-2103060595125162712008-02-23T19:14:00.000-05:002008-02-23T19:14:00.000-05:00A few years ago a small group of boys came collect...A few years ago a small group of boys came collecting on Purim. It was clear that they were under the influence of alcohol. In talking to the boys my husband found out that one was a local boy and after a fwe tries my husband reached his father. He told the father to come get the boys. The father was yelling at my husband that this was Purim and what kind of a person was my husband when my husband told him to either come get the boys or he was calling the police. <BR/><BR/>When the father and mother arrived he found the boys had parked half on our driveway and half on the lawn. And there was a big dent in the front bumper that hadn't been there when the boys started out. The father apologized to my husband and the mother drove away the boys' car. Before Yom Kippur the boys father asked my husband for mechiloh for yelling at him. He also gave my husband a check for the damage to our property.<BR/><BR/>It could have been a lot worse. Somebody could have died. I only hope the father kept a better eye on his son after that.<BR/><BR/>Would we have called the police? I would hope so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-19427610795644513962008-02-22T13:43:00.000-05:002008-02-22T13:43:00.000-05:00Scraps,Be my guest and use the post any way you wa...Scraps,<BR/>Be my guest and use the post any way you want. I'd even help you do the drop except that I am like one of the commenters--I won't drive in Brooklyn on Purim--I consider it "sakonos nefoshos."ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-32402542655638594102008-02-22T13:32:00.000-05:002008-02-22T13:32:00.000-05:00Profk, I wish we could print out several thousand ...Profk, I wish we could print out several thousand copies of this post and do a leaflet drop over every major Jewish area where there is excessive drinking on Purim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-67090928752403752122008-02-22T13:27:00.000-05:002008-02-22T13:27:00.000-05:00Was kind of surprised to see such an open discussi...Was kind of surprised to see such an open discussion about alcohol on a religious jewish blog. I admit I'm more left then right and maybe don't know all the details but it's the perception I have and lots of people who are like me have that the more religious you get the less you admit publicly to having any problems like this in the community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-14866613544789188682008-02-22T08:24:00.000-05:002008-02-22T08:24:00.000-05:00Conspiculously absent from all the mentions of peo...Conspiculously absent from all the mentions of people who are against the drinking is the Agudah. They have the time to put out wedding takanos. Why not takanos for alcohol on Purim? When and where it is assur to drink. Who can drink and how much. Who is not allowed to drink. When the drinking can begin. Issurim on being in a car drunk or driving a car drunk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-10089433644930073502008-02-22T07:36:00.000-05:002008-02-22T07:36:00.000-05:00I saw that Don't Get Carried Away poster and it wa...I saw that Don't Get Carried Away poster and it was good but didn't go far enough. I went to a public high school and they had a mandatory assembly and literally locked us in the room. They showed a film to us made by the state police of what drinking and driving really looks like. There was footage from real accidents and the blood and screaming wasn't just staged actors.When they show you a picture of someone your age running on the basketball court and then what he looks like in a wheelchair missing a leg you're forced to listen. Or the prom queen laughing and enjoying herself and then what she looks like laid out in a coffin. <BR/><BR/>If someone is going to vomit in the street let it be from seeing what drinking can really do to you instead of from the drinking itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-88760600182062171062008-02-22T00:37:00.000-05:002008-02-22T00:37:00.000-05:00*'Don't get carried away'*'Don't get carried away'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-3339882989862801292008-02-22T00:33:00.000-05:002008-02-22T00:33:00.000-05:00Rochelle - I agree with you, but hey, I am not the...Rochelle - I agree with you, but hey, I am not the pope of the Jews. Even Mordechai of Megillah fame was not 'ratzui' to all of his brethren. I wonder - if he would come around today and tell these troublemakers to stop debasing his holiday by turning it (G-d forbid and help us) into a Jewish version of (lihavdil) Carnival/Mardi Gras/Halloween (Rachmana litzlan) - I bet some of them would tell him to get lost too. <BR/><BR/>The problem is not new, but it seems to have gotten worse in recent years. I don't think it's a coincidence that it seemingly has gotten worse at the same time that certain types of other irresponsible and wrong behavior masquerading as piety has grown, some of which has been addressed here as well. There is a connection. Not being responsible with the purse is related to not being responsible with the bottle. Not caring about what impression outsiders get is a common thread. These people at times display an 'in your face' attitude toward the outside world and those preaching seichel and menschlichkeit. <BR/><BR/>This type of behavior is not frumkeit, it's wildness masquerading as frumkeit.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps Prof. K. is not even going far enough. Maybe people should take note of Purim behavior of people connected with certain institutions and control their purses accordingly. Also, to lessen any contributions given to drunken collectors.<BR/><BR/>I don't know about the Hatzoloh declaration being online now, but it should appear again right befoe Purim in newspapers and posters.<BR/><BR/><BR/>P.S. I just saw that someone posted it at a Hatzoloh site (http://www.hatzolahtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=1197&hl=purim), but it seems to have been removed/disabled subsequently. However, perhaps if you contact the poster, you could get it that way. Also, search at that site for 'Purim' and you will see some interesting stuff.<BR/><BR/>The 'Don't get acrried away' poster is quite good, I recall seeing it. It shows someone being carried/put into an ambulance and the message is 'don't get carried away this Purim'.<BR/><BR/>Also, by the way, ad delo yada applies during the day, not Purim night.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-39918681596926818172008-02-21T23:50:00.000-05:002008-02-21T23:50:00.000-05:00Amen. I've written about these issues in the past...Amen. I've written about these issues in the past and it is great to see you with another home run post. <BR/><BR/>One of the teenage boys likes to tell us about the Rebbes at the Yeshiva and their states of inebriation on Purim. None of my children are old enough to get to a local Yeshiva by themselves yet and I feel fortunate. Parents should not have to expose their children to this type of behavior just because their kids looked out the window that day. <BR/><BR/>I like your post so much I will have to link to it soon. We need more voices like yours out there.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-58244937631892144342008-02-21T22:54:00.000-05:002008-02-21T22:54:00.000-05:00d, When you say "The good news is that outrage has...d, When you say "The good news is that outrage has been mounting for years over the abuses described and the accompanying chillul Hashem, and, boruch Hashem, in recent years, there is a growing chorus of voices speaking out against it" I wish I could be happier about that. At what point is it going to be enough years and at what point will that chorus stop growing and be full grown? Just whose tender feelings are we so worried about hurting that we can't get this thing done? It's not enough that this blog joined in condemning the alcohol problem. Where are all the other voices? The other blogs? I'll give full credit to profk for this posting but it's not enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-37672237171475116132008-02-21T16:27:00.000-05:002008-02-21T16:27:00.000-05:00... I'm a boy and I don't drink on purim at all.It...... I'm a boy and I don't drink on purim at all.<BR/><BR/>Its assur to get really drunk, the shulchan aruch calls it "madness and folly" and says that it does not equal serving g-d at all, in any way.<BR/><BR/>its just assur. (and its the same with the tur and all the other halachic sefarim.)Looking Forwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876831969877780546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-74794601208620902962008-02-21T16:19:00.000-05:002008-02-21T16:19:00.000-05:00d,Do you know if that Hatzoloh declaration is avai...d,<BR/>Do you know if that Hatzoloh declaration is available anywhere online? I would love to post it here as a public service. I don't claim to reach the world on this blog but anyone who does come should be exposed to it. Maybe other blogs would post it as well. Takes all of a few seconds and could save some lives.<BR/><BR/>The Young Israel in SI banned the kiddush clubs a few years ago and the community pretty much fell into line. And the world didn't end. A few of the clubs are still around but they have evolved into lunch on shabbos clubs and the only drinking is making kiddush before the meal--on one glass of something.<BR/><BR/>Re the links you sent me, I had actually seen those before. The YW postings both had a YNET article from Purim 2006. Here it is 2008 and it doesn't look from where I'm sitting that we have made a lot of progress.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.com