tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post4270793244917913518..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: Moving Beyond Fishele and FraydeleProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-87879947672102013362008-07-14T09:45:00.000-04:002008-07-14T09:45:00.000-04:00Isn't the answer to this problem sitting in our wa...Isn't the answer to this problem sitting in our wallets? If we refuse to buy jewish books that are not as well written as the secular books are then the publishing businesses will have to set higher standards for the works they publish. We need to let them know that what they are publishing is mediocre and we deserve better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-8379412768515433282008-07-09T16:51:00.000-04:002008-07-09T16:51:00.000-04:00I'm not the biggest reader out there but I never l...I'm not the biggest reader out there but I never liked the jewish books as much as the secular books. A lot of the conversation here has shown me why. Since y9ou know what should be in the books profk have you ever thought about writing one yourself? Given all the different things you write about on the blog I bet you could find a topic for a book easily.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-30307124935417984482008-07-09T11:22:00.000-04:002008-07-09T11:22:00.000-04:00It wasn't a bad idea to have books with Jewish the...It wasn't a bad idea to have books with Jewish themes for frum kids, but it didn't turn out too well. There's a big difference between something that is good reading, good literature, and just printing words on a page. I don't buy these Jewish books and I do go to the library. Lion, check with the librarian for when the book hours are and the storytelling hours are. It's not all just about computers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-25088111549239351262008-07-09T09:09:00.000-04:002008-07-09T09:09:00.000-04:00Easy to say Anonymous 1:06 but a lot harder to do....Easy to say Anonymous 1:06 but a lot harder to do. What is personal to me I can be in control of and I can change without asking someone else. Schools are community wide and involve more than just me and my ideas. There are other parents, all of whom have their own ideas of what should and shouldn't be going on. There are the owners/administrators/teachers of the schools who also have their own ideas. There are rabbanim who chime in. Affecting change is not always as simple as just wanting something to change. It comes very slowly when you have to deal with hundreds of people. Find another school? Not always so simple either. When you have only one school locally then it's either that school or no yeshiva education, and that's no choice for us. Even with two schools available, what makes you think that the schools will be different enough to be a real choice?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-30507390580555173432008-07-09T01:06:00.000-04:002008-07-09T01:06:00.000-04:00I have no pity for you parents who complain about ...I have no pity for you parents who complain about the English curriculum. FIND ANOTHER SCHOOL! If the education stinks - change it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-21086360952112582008-07-08T15:50:00.000-04:002008-07-08T15:50:00.000-04:00I was wondering when the English teacher in you wa...I was wondering when the English teacher in you was going to come to the forefront of your postings. I enjoy your take on things (maybe because I agree with so much of it). More please?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-86404141946517191992008-07-08T13:49:00.000-04:002008-07-08T13:49:00.000-04:00"tell me what the Yiddish words are for 'noun, ver..."tell me what the Yiddish words are for 'noun, verb, adjective and adverb.'"<BR/><BR/>noun הויפטווארט<BR/>verbv האנדלונגסווארט<BR/>adj אדיעקטיפ<BR/>adverb אדווערב<BR/><BR/>or at least these were the words 100 years agoLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-43089026555647199662008-07-08T11:30:00.000-04:002008-07-08T11:30:00.000-04:00I remember those Fischele and Fraydele books. And...I remember those Fischele and Fraydele books. And I remember my kids asking what kind of weird names Fischele and Fraydele were for Jewish people. I explained to them that the names came from Yiddish and were used by some people. My youngest wanted to know if the parents in the book couldn't afford a real Jewish name for their kids. Not exactly the discussion you hope for when you read a book to kids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-84853570335591970792008-07-08T07:45:00.000-04:002008-07-08T07:45:00.000-04:00D,I read the Albarelli book when it first came out...D,<BR/>I read the Albarelli book when it first came out, and anyone who has ever taught in one of the chassidishe schools can recognize some of their experiences in it. My first teaching job was in Williamsburg while still in college and there I was teaching English grammar to third graders--and the languages of instruction were Hungarian and Yiddish. Go ahead, tell me what the Yiddish words are for "noun, verb, adjective and adverb." <BR/><BR/>Sad but true, he would never get hired by Satmar today.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-27160075872935438922008-07-08T07:39:00.000-04:002008-07-08T07:39:00.000-04:00D,I've tutored students whose school uses the text...D,<BR/>I've tutored students whose school uses the textword books The Yeshiva of Far Rockaway HS for Boys). They aren't bad but there are a few areas where it becomes obvious that they are niche publishing. It seems that their cut off point for writing is the <BR/>50's. An insufficient number of plays, with only Macbeth to represent Shakespeare. The emphasis is on the short story rather than a balance of novels and short stories. But yes, they are far better than the Jewish press special editions that come out for yeshiva use. They are NYSTL approved, but there are two editions available, one general one and one for the NYC DOE, with different literature choices in some cases.<BR/><BR/>Still there is plenty for students to get their teeth into.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-82270237150241168622008-07-07T22:59:00.000-04:002008-07-07T22:59:00.000-04:00There is a venture to make available specially mad...There is a venture to make available specially made textbooks that fit well with conservative (small c) schools, that is in between the extremes of banning and allowing all outside literature, by Textword Press (http://www.textword.com/).<BR/><BR/>I don't know how much of the market they have, but I believe some frum schools use their products, as well as some Christian schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-9638642481634224402008-07-07T22:45:00.000-04:002008-07-07T22:45:00.000-04:00LOZ - sorry about your bad experiences.Albarelli i...LOZ - sorry about your bad experiences.<BR/><BR/>Albarelli is a talented writer, he has gone on to write other stuff. I met him a number of times. I recall a program at MJH downtown where he was on a program with the late Grace Paley. If you get a chance you could check out the book ("Teacha..."), I think you would really enjoy it (it's not that many pages, relatively short, in form of a few short stories, as I recall).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-19522812875635038112008-07-07T22:28:00.000-04:002008-07-07T22:28:00.000-04:00If I had to go without secular novels for any exte...If I had to go without secular novels for any extended period of time I would probably go insane. I grew up reading all the time. Now I'm living in a house where one of my housemates is a librarian and thus we have a TON of books, so I never am wanting for reading material.<BR/><BR/>I've spent some shabbats in homes where there were only Jewish novels. I find I have a really hard time reading them. (Moral of the story *always* bring a book with you.) Perhaps my goal in life should be to write a good frum fantasy novel, but then again it would probably still be ossured because the author is egalitarian, therefore the book must be kefira. That, and I'm not a writer. And it would be hard to create believable science fiction with frum characters...unless I took one of the many novels where religion is gone in the future, and chronicle the plight of frum Jews in such a situation...<BR/><BR/>When I have kids, they're going to be allowed to read secular books, and encouraged to read science fiction and fantasy, since it would be nice if my kids were nerds. But then again, I'm not Orthodox, so I don't have to worry about conforming to these rules.Knitter of shiny thingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10495339297497300925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-53582187965953546812008-07-07T20:18:00.000-04:002008-07-07T20:18:00.000-04:00ProfK, as to your question:Where are the parents?a...ProfK, as to your question:<BR/>Where are the parents?<BR/>anecdote A: Parent of brilliant math prodigy comes to parent conferences furious because she had to spend "hours" in the library with her 14=year old choosing books for my assigned paper. Why couldn't he just use the school library? He had no idea how to navigate the public library and since I had told the students that they were not to rely on the librarian, it took "them" forever to get a book. Ridiculous! (Duh! Research skills have only been taught by our excellent school librarian for years prior to this assignment. It just wasn't his priority).<BR/>Anecdote B: After said research paper was assigned quoth MO mom of 6, "It's going to take us an extra weekend. He doesn't have a card. He lost it years ago and his dad and I are in L.A. on vacation. Sorry."<BR/>As to the video game plague, it is just that a plague. We have told our children very simply that these games will rot their brains and we will not be buying them. Sorry. Guess what? They hardly ever ask anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-33259482059809837122008-07-07T19:51:00.000-04:002008-07-07T19:51:00.000-04:00PROFK:"There is already a Jewish version of those ...PROFK:<BR/><BR/>"There is already a Jewish version of those Cliff Notes going around . . ."<BR/><BR/>when i was in BC, students regularly handed down old papers (and exams). this is popular in YU as well, where it has an official moniker: massorah.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-42823542973243558782008-07-07T19:07:00.000-04:002008-07-07T19:07:00.000-04:00Someone... [gasp]Someone... [faint]Someone rewrote...Someone... [gasp]<BR/>Someone... [faint]<BR/><I>Someone rewrote The Lottery?!!?</I><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I directly credit my youthful reading with my ability to write. I've noticed that I and many fellow English majors write in the style of favorite classic authors. <BR/><BR/>As for whether children want to read: <BR/><BR/>When I first was able to put the letters of my name together my mother made a huge deal - I could now go to the library and get my <I>own</I> card. <BR/><BR/>Every Friday we took a family trip to the library to get books to read over Shobbos. <BR/><BR/>Before Pesach, lest we go 8 days without literature, we went to the store and <I>bought</I> books. <BR/><BR/>My grandmother gave us books as gifts whenever she came. She waxed poetic about beautiful language, classical literature, and elevated vocabulary. <BR/><BR/>In contrast, computer games were treated like something detestable. If we asked to play, we received the same reaction as if we'd have asked to play in the mud while wearing Shobbos clothes. Video games were purchased grudgingly and infrequently, and time playing them was severely monitored. <BR/><BR/>We had three acceptable ways to spend a lazy afternoon: reading, doing crafts, or playing (non-digital). <BR/><BR/>And guess what - we read. (And played and did crafts.)<BR/><BR/>I actually read many classic books well beyond my age and reading level. All that inappropriate stuff? Went right over my head. Only rereading them years later did I understand the inferences and subplots. But the vocabulary and language usage were deeply patterned into my brain. <BR/><BR/>And, IMHO: LotR is one of the dumbest novel series's I've ever read. Let the kid read Harry Potter if he wants. Or better yet, suggest Diana Wynne Jones, if you want fantasy with meat to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-1856327394008093322008-07-07T18:16:00.000-04:002008-07-07T18:16:00.000-04:00Lion,There is already a Jewish version of those Cl...Lion,<BR/>There is already a Jewish version of those Cliff Notes going around--they call it "borrowing" a paper that someone else has written about the book and turning it in as their own. They happen to read the "borrowed" paper just in case anyone asks them about it. As one teacher put it "ha'levei they should be reading the Cliff Notes--at least they would be reading!"<BR/><BR/>It's one reason why in my college we use the program Turn It In to check for plagiarized material, including papers from the papermill sites. It's one reason why I spend each summer developing a unique combination of readings across an equally unique theme for the writing classes. And why each instructor gets a different combination of readings, so that students from different classes cannot "share" papers. And why I read each and every research paper written in both the men's and women's division. I may not remember where I put the barbeque tools last year but I have an instant recall when it comes to the written word.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-1102577522731163202008-07-07T16:52:00.001-04:002008-07-07T16:52:00.001-04:00no one has raised the most important question. wil...no one has raised the most important question. will there be enough of a market for these jewish books for cliff's notes?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-21865934275630396772008-07-07T16:52:00.000-04:002008-07-07T16:52:00.000-04:00ANON MOM:"their parents aren't pulling them away t...ANON MOM:<BR/><BR/>"their parents aren't pulling them away to go to the library"<BR/><BR/>they don't read books in the library either. i was going to post a little while ago about my first (and only) trip with my 3-year old to the library. i was very disappointed (i go frequently to academic libraries but have not been to a public one in years.) i saw very few people (maybe some senior citizens) actually with books. everyone (kids) included were glued to computer terminal. even my son at first wanted to sit by a computer.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-22276371131725685232008-07-07T16:30:00.000-04:002008-07-07T16:30:00.000-04:00Decided to drop into my own blog for a few minutes...Decided to drop into my own blog for a few minutes (you're all doing really well here without me.) I'm really old school when it comes to parenting--families aren't democracies with every member having an equal vote. My kids did not watch any television shows that my husband and I did not approve of. They went to bed when we said it was bed time. They played with their toys until we said it was time to put away the toys. Did they sometimes have choices? Sure, they got to choose among things we had already decided were acceptable for them.<BR/><BR/>Kids are glued to their electronic games, to their computers? And just where are the parents here? They don't read enough? Where are the parents to take them to the library? To encourage reading? To read with and to their kids, regardless of age? Where are the gifts of books instead of yet another expensive and soon to be obsolete computer game? Where are the parents in looking at what their kids are reading and discussing with them the subject matter? Where are the parents?!! The schools have a lot to answer for for the semi-literate students they are turning out, but the parents aren't blameless.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes that old saw does apply: if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-92122236188540281492008-07-07T16:13:00.000-04:002008-07-07T16:13:00.000-04:00If only it was all science fiction that some of th...If only it was all science fiction that some of the kids were reading, or at least good science fiction. A lot of it goes as anonymous mom pointed out to pulp fantasy and to the darker force.<BR/><BR/>My son started out with the Harry Potter books when they came out so I went to read to see what he was going to be reading. I don't see what all the hype is about with those books. They're okay but nothing more than that. I gave him Tolkien's Ring Trilogy--a lot more meat in those works and better writing.<BR/><BR/>The Jewish bookstore books? We don't bother with them. The fact that those books sell should point out that some of our kids are starved for reading and they'll take even the pap from the bookstores if nothing else is available. What is wrong with people that they consider the library as some kind of vast conspiracy to destroy the frum world?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-42591650716521212842008-07-07T15:51:00.000-04:002008-07-07T15:51:00.000-04:00When I taught 5th Grade, I did not allow Jewish bo...When I taught 5th Grade, I did not allow Jewish books published in English to be used for book reports. I explained my position to the parents and challenged them to find an example of good literature coming out of the Judaica store that they would have liked me to read. No one ever accepted the challenge. Bottom line: the Jewish books stink. In addition to being poorly written with underdeveloped characters and low-level vocabulary, the plots are sometimes inappropriate for the age group to which they are geared. For example: kidnappings,death, Holocaust in a book written for a third grader. I am also concerned, but this is a separate topic, with the recent love affair with science fiction in the Yeshiva world. Those that do read secular books are engrossed often in the darker force books. While there is a place for science fiction in the reading repertoire of a child or young adult, it should not be the only tool in their box and I am beginning to wonder if some of the parents are allowing the science fiction because it won't have the relationship issues that come up in the other books. If so, that's a copout to me. What is most gut-wrenching is the fact that most kids, from MO to Chareidi, are not seeing the inside of a library. The MO kids (many of my students) are glued to their DVD's and Gameboys, the Internet games, etc. and their parents aren't pulling them away to go to the library. In the Chareidi world, the library is Ossur completely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-41134378995300053262008-07-07T15:15:00.000-04:002008-07-07T15:15:00.000-04:00D:no. i just googled it. i'm glad it seems he ende...D:<BR/><BR/>no. i just googled it. i'm glad it seems he ended up having sort of a positive experience with the kids. my memoirs would simply come across as anti-semitic treatise. aside from my actual experience in the classroom, i had had cartons dropped on me from the top of a stairwell, my car was vandalized, etc. i ended up quiting a month before the end of the school year. it was great pay for a college student, but it just wasn't worth itLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-60860121716326573212008-07-07T12:08:00.000-04:002008-07-07T12:08:00.000-04:00It's the first step in a dictatorship that they ba...It's the first step in a dictatorship that they ban all sources of information, newspapers, radio, television, the Internet and books. They can paint the world any way they want when people have nothing else to compare it to. They can say what they want and no one can say they are wrong because no one knows any better. Sure there are books that may not be appropriate for frum jews, but you tell them which ones and why. You don't ban all books because of a few.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-57673142702169343532008-07-07T10:16:00.000-04:002008-07-07T10:16:00.000-04:00LOZ - have you read Gerry Albarelli's book about h...LOZ - have you read Gerry Albarelli's book about his teaching experiences ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com