tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post2132038724912797499..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: Some Thoughts on Multi GenerationsProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-29600747506408639412011-08-18T09:15:56.150-04:002011-08-18T09:15:56.150-04:00Until you really get into this situation where you...Until you really get into this situation where you have to be caring for older parents or even parents and grandparents it's all talk. The practical is a lot tougher then what is being discussed here like philosophy. Easy to say that someone should quit a job to take care of parents. Easy to say somebody will have to relocate. Easy to say what's the big deal. Easy to say Medicaid will take care of things.<br /><br />My family is already living with this problem and it is anything but easy. It's a 24/7 job and you really need about another 12 hours in the day. And forget about having a normal life for yourself and maybe your kids.Simanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-59311077244558144112011-08-16T01:07:46.826-04:002011-08-16T01:07:46.826-04:00Thanks for the reference here, and yes, this is a ...Thanks for the reference here, and yes, this is a huge issue, and it's here today.The Rebbetzin's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14977193945074906534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-65021256312684007552011-08-14T16:07:50.149-04:002011-08-14T16:07:50.149-04:00Families tend to take care of their own. Communal...Families tend to take care of their own. Communal concerns should be addressed toward those seniors who don't have any one to care for them, such as those who never married, never had chidren or have children who are unwilling or unable to help care for their parents. How we treat the most vulnerable members of our population is the true test of our humanity and religiousity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-69348031197429437112011-08-14T14:12:59.425-04:002011-08-14T14:12:59.425-04:00Helping out an aging generation is a constant topi...Helping out an aging generation is a constant topic in personal finance publications. Some families choose to pay the primary caregiver so he/she can leave a part time job. Other families split the bills. <br /><br />Taking care of aging generations will be a challenge for the frum community as it will compete with tuition. <br /><br />That said, all need to be practical and relocation must be in the vocabulary.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-67384123675586555132011-08-14T14:12:11.266-04:002011-08-14T14:12:11.266-04:00For those of you who think Medicaid is the answer ...For those of you who think Medicaid is the answer to the problem of caring for the elderly, think again. Medicaid does pay for nursing homes and medical care if all your assets are depleted, but it does not pay for most of the services needed to allow elders to remain in their homes. Also, the rules for Medicaid eligibility and what Medicaid will cover are going to get more and more restrictive. Also, you can't just give your assets away to qualify. The look back period is going to get longer and longer. Now for example, a state my say, in determining whether you are eligible, we are going to count all the assets you gave away for the last four years. Soon, that time period is going to be seven years, then ten years. Also, Medicaid funding is such that due to low funding (and/or fraud and greed by nursing home operators and administrators) the care and conditions in many medicaid-funding nursing homes is sub-optimal.<br /><br />The best thing that children and grandchildren can do is make sure the parents/grandparents have purchased good long-term care insurance (and will have the money to pay for it in the future) before they let the grandparents/parents spend money on the grandchildren's weddings, schools, vacations, etc. If the grandparents/parents can't pay for long-term care insurance, the kids/grandkids who aren't going to be willing or able to provide care for the prior generation(s) should chip in to pay for long-term care insurance that will pay for several years of in-home care, or, if needed, a good nursing home.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-19646657787469723022011-08-11T22:16:49.097-04:002011-08-11T22:16:49.097-04:00Allen,
I am making assumptions, the same assumpti...Allen,<br /><br />I am making assumptions, the same assumptions that have been made for generations. People have been getting old for time immemorial. And those elderly people have had to be taken care of. This isn't a new phenomenon. The fact that people live longer just means we may have to care for the elderly for a longer period of time.<br /><br />This is, quite frankly, the easiest of problems to deal with for the reason I mentioned above: the average elderly person has numerous children and grandchildren to help them. It's the EXACT opposite problem of yeshiva tuition in which one couple has numerous children they have to pay for.<br /><br />It would seem many feel they are entitled to live out their lives in a nearby frum facility that costs around $80k per year. Further, if that money isn't available and family can't pay it, the community should. I don't understand this at all. Communal support and money should be for the rarest of instances in which a person has no family and no one to care for them. It shouldn't be used because people can't be bothered to care for their relatives. It's the same for the poor - family should help them and the community should step up when their familial safety net is gone. The entitlement is really just too much - the community doesn't owe you anything. There's nothing they HAVE to solve.<br /><br />My grandmother wasn't wealthy. When she started getting ill, her children drove the 25 or so miles to see her several times a week. When she developed Alzheimer's and needed full-time care, they helped her spend down/gift away her few remaining assets and found a local Jewish nursing home that accepted Medicaid. They visited her daily. Why is this a radical solution? The children with more money and time available helped out more. No one was wealthy or not working, they made time and found money. This is normal people do who love their parents and want to care for them. And you know what? It sends a helluva stronger message to the grandchildren about what kibbud av v'eim is than having the community solve all your problems.<br /><br />My other grandmother lived far away. She had an accident and broke her leg. She was brought back here to be closer to family so she could be cared for. Again, time was made available on top of busy schedules. Money was found to help out to the extent necessary.<br /><br />Neither situation was ideal. Life isn't ideal. Getting old sucks. Watching once vibrant people fall ill and lose their physical and mental facilities really sucks. You find a way to make it work. That's the right thing to do.<br /><br />The community steps in when the elderly have been abandoned, not when someone can't afford the luxury frum resort nursing home with daily shiurim. Ironically, I bet a lot of people who want this type of communal help rail against "big government" and welfare programs.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-22006354877454235172011-08-11T21:55:27.955-04:002011-08-11T21:55:27.955-04:00...and that's why I'd like to move near th......and that's why I'd like to move near the geographically isolated grandparents, the other set is closer to their kin.<br /><br />-Practical PersonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-50229187297698880362011-08-11T21:28:29.369-04:002011-08-11T21:28:29.369-04:00Allen,
If none of your kids are capable of helpin...Allen,<br /><br />If none of your kids are capable of helping you financially, and you are incapable of supporting yourself financially, then you are at the mercy of the state and the community... beggars can't be choosers. You're broke and your family is broke? You're a beggar, drop the entitlement act.<br /><br />You can't afford to live on your own because of choices you made? Go move to be near your kids.<br /><br />It is that simple. The idea that you should never be inconvenienced or handed the bill for your inconvenience is a bit strange.<br /><br />"rankly, if the choice comes down between paying X for a yeshiva education, to include all the frills and fancies, and making sure that our older folks are healthy, safe and well taken care of, yeshivas come dead last for me."<br /><br />Easy to say, pretty sure your actions speak otherwise.<br /><br />"I do not owe the yeshivas anything, but I surely owe my parents a lot, not least of which is making sure that what they need is provided for. "<br /><br />That's also Jewish law, but surprisingly out of practice.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-16787136874725889452011-08-11T19:04:25.289-04:002011-08-11T19:04:25.289-04:00"The problem will be solved the same way it&#..."The problem will be solved the same way it's always been solved. The children and grandchildren that are closest and most financially able and most able to give up their time will help the most and the others will chip in as they can." <br /><br />JS, that's quite an assumption you are making, and your statement has the problems with it right in it. First, the children and grandchildren that are the closest, which assumes that there will be children or grandchildren who are living close by to these parents, an assumption today that you can't make across the board. <br /><br />Second you have "most financially able," which assumes that there will be among the children or grandchildren at least one capable of financially bearing the load of caring for those older parents or grandparents. And if there isn't?<br /><br />And then you have "most able to give up their time." And what if the one most able to give up that time just doesn't happen to live close to those parents and grandparents? And what if all married couples are all working because they have to in order to afford to live, so no one is able to give up their time?<br /><br />You are describing the ideal situation, and that doesn't exist for all that many people. In my community married kids are spread out across the country and in Israel. On average we have about one out of three or four kids in a family coming back to live here, if that. Mine is an oot community and a lot of us married people from other communities. Mostly their parents stayed in their home communities.<br /><br />The solution isn't as simple as you seem to be making it out to be.Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-64604941924506110702011-08-11T18:10:31.893-04:002011-08-11T18:10:31.893-04:00You don't have the money, you don't have t...You don't have the money, you don't have the money. It's really that simple. You can't afford the nice place, you go to the less nice place that takes Medicaid. That place is filled up, go to the Medicaid place a little further away. No more frum Medicaid places? Go to a non-Jewish one and arrange for kosher food. Or make some other sacrifice such as taking in this parent or grandparent and working fewer hours or quitting your job to become a full-time caretaker.<br /><br />There are solutions out there, they just may not be ideal.<br /><br />As for the lack of frum facilities, I'm not so concerned. If there's one thing the frum community has proven it's that when there's money to be made, someone will step up. Seems from your post people don't want the Medicaid facilities and are willing to spend tens of thousands a year to go to the "nice" place. I'm sure someone will step up and open another nice frum place and they will gladly take your money.<br /><br />See "yeshivas" and "yeshiva tuition" for reference.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-3606442853042047742011-08-11T17:59:35.803-04:002011-08-11T17:59:35.803-04:00It's not a requirement JS for a private living...It's not a requirement JS for a private living facility to take medicaid as its only payment. I know the place mentioned in Queens and it doesn't take medicaid patients. There is another place not far from it that does take medicaid but when it's full up then what?Chananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-63811846591232340202011-08-11T14:50:01.044-04:002011-08-11T14:50:01.044-04:00Also, why are you not mentioning medicaid? It'...Also, why are you not mentioning medicaid? It's very common to spend down assets and give gifts to family in order to qualify for medicaid. Medicaid pays these extraordinary bills. Maybe it's not the Ritz, but there's good care to be had.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-25532359539117924972011-08-11T14:48:01.984-04:002011-08-11T14:48:01.984-04:00"Frankly, if the choice comes down between pa..."Frankly, if the choice comes down between paying X for a yeshiva education, to include all the frills and fancies, and making sure that our older folks are healthy, safe and well taken care of, yeshivas come dead last for me."<br /><br />To this point, is this only because your kids are older? What if you were a younger parent and your own parents and grandparents needed assistance? Do you pull your kids out of yeshiva, send to public school or some comparable solution and use the tuition money to help your family? Or do you spend the money on tuition and find some other solution to help your parents or grandparents?JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-36205111793883914462011-08-11T14:45:46.568-04:002011-08-11T14:45:46.568-04:00I apologize in advance, but this post was needless...I apologize in advance, but this post was needlessly long for making such a straight-forward point.<br /><br />Also, for 4-5 generation families, you have to assume each generation, roughly, had their first child between ages 20-30. So, how exactly are the #2 and #3 generations that old? You keep mentioning how everyone is getting on in age. In a 4 generation family, #2 is likely around 60, that's not all that old. That's not even retirement age. In a 5 generation family, #3 is around age 40. Again, how is this getting on years?<br /><br />This problem of taking care of the elderly should be relatively straight-forward as each older member has more and more descendants to care for them. A grandparent has children and grandchildren (plus their spouses) - even having 3 kids in each generation gives you 6 kids and 18 grandchildren (including the spouses) to care for you. Those kids and grandchildren have a total of 8 parents/grandparents to care for. 24 people to care for 8 isn't that outrageous and it's doubtful all 8 would simultaneously need help anyways.<br /><br />The problem will be solved the same way it's always been solved. The children and grandchildren that are closest and most financially able and most able to give up their time will help the most and the others will chip in as they can.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-2261050222732026902011-08-11T12:46:28.140-04:002011-08-11T12:46:28.140-04:00Prof K,
You're ahead of the times. People won...Prof K,<br /><br />You're ahead of the times. People wont realize this is an issue for 10-20 year (when the boomers really start needing help). This will exacerbate the tuition crisis (many parents are helping their kids).<br /><br />The only solution is to start realigning priorities/create more sustainable models now. <br /><br />Unfortunately that doesn't seem likely.Honus T.noreply@blogger.com