tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post2077637835518454914..comments2024-02-23T04:39:49.329-05:00Comments on Conversations in Klal: What Use the Labels of KlalProfKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-57994374538222157392010-07-04T12:59:33.719-04:002010-07-04T12:59:33.719-04:00Yes, but the problem is that apple cultivars are r...Yes, but the problem is that apple cultivars are really distinct. There is no such continuum of apples between a granny Smith and a Fuji. The various labels for (let's just stick to them for a moment) Orthodox Jews do not really represent separate entities but particular points out of a continuous range. How do you a classify a Zionist kollel learner who runs a business for 3 hours a day and is willing to live on the limited proceeds of same, is fairly liberal when it comes to women's roles, very machmir on kashrue, and grew up in a frum home but whose widowed mother married a Gentile as a second husband. (Yes, this is a real person)Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-7225037422028139922010-07-02T11:21:25.001-04:002010-07-02T11:21:25.001-04:00Okay, I give--no more apples and oranges as separa...Okay, I give--no more apples and oranges as separate. Instead let's consider klal as a fruit salad. Better yet, let's consider it as a fruitcake--all those fruits baked together in one cake although individual bites might contain only one kind or another. And to carry out that analogy a bit further, let's remember that every fruitcake recipe contains some nuts--why should Klal be different? There's a reason that idiom says "nuttier than a fruitcake" in reference to someone, and they aren't paying that person a compliment.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-76891352322398142742010-07-01T16:21:18.597-04:002010-07-01T16:21:18.597-04:00Oh please. I'm Anon 10:25 and I like those ve...Oh please. I'm Anon 10:25 and I like those vegetables - but they get a bad rap, sort of like the way many frum Jews (not you of course) think about non-Jews.<br /><br />As for the apples and oranges, I really don't make that distinction between myself and non-Orthodox Jews. Just as Anon 9:04 says, there are people who are labeling you an Orange or a Clementine when you think you are a proud card carrying Apple.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-43719594656791575782010-07-01T13:48:04.627-04:002010-07-01T13:48:04.627-04:00Oranges are inferior?! Have you priced citrus fru...Oranges are inferior?! Have you priced citrus fruits lately? Far more expensive then apples are. Besides, fruits aren't inferior to each other--they are just different from each other. As to the flavor or texture being very different, so? That's personal taste, not any kind of ranking where one is higher then the other.Tobanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-85938886711018224242010-07-01T13:22:29.365-04:002010-07-01T13:22:29.365-04:00Ruth. I like cruciferous vegatables too. The pro...Ruth. I like cruciferous vegatables too. The problem is that most people who label someone as cruciferous don't do so to extol the health benefits, but rather do so to focus on the negative -- i.e. the flatulence. People never merely say that apples are different than oranges, they label others as oranges to say they are inferior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-69426260265475518492010-07-01T13:02:05.793-04:002010-07-01T13:02:05.793-04:00Take a deep breath Anon 10:25. You think it's ...Take a deep breath Anon 10:25. You think it's only chasidim that cheat on their taxes? Right. No Reform Jew, no Conservative Jew, no Mormon, no Presbyterian, No Catholic, no anybody else ever cheated? Get real! You're still a member of your group even if you aren't the best example. Bruised apples aren't called by a different name.<br /><br />Re Reform Jews as oranges. Oranges and apples are both fruits--in the same general class. But you don't think there is a real difference? Try baking oranges into a pie--can't be done. You think the differences aren't major between the orthodox and the Reform or even the Conservative? Which part of being shomer Torah u'mitzvos should we look at? Want to talk about fully keeping Shabbos? Or Kashrut? How about Mikveh?<br /><br />As to non-Jews, what's the big deal if they aren't apples and are a different fruit or even vegetables? God made them all and He assigned differences so what are you complaining about? And stop picking on broccoli and brussel sprouts--some of us like both of them.Ruthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-62317883497409523222010-07-01T10:25:10.778-04:002010-07-01T10:25:10.778-04:00Agree with Anon 9:04. It's shocking to blithe...Agree with Anon 9:04. It's shocking to blithely categorize other Jews as outside the Apple fold. Why does a Chasid who cheats on his taxes get to be an exclusive Apple (even a rotten one), while a law-abiding, good-deed-doing, practicing Reform Jew get stuck as an Orange?<br /><br />And non-Jews? Are they vegetables like broccoli or brussels sprouts? Give me a break.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-51372202088411522922010-07-01T10:00:31.757-04:002010-07-01T10:00:31.757-04:00All I know is that my empire apples, granny smiths...All I know is that my empire apples, granny smiths, and macs all happily co-exist in the fruit bin in my fridge, along with some oranges, grapefruits, grapes and kiwis. I also really enjoy a fruit salad with lots of different fruits mixed in ranging from apple to cantalope to kiwi to some orange juice and a squeeze of leomon. As much as I like apples, some variety is wonderful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-85374215184184310262010-07-01T09:04:52.015-04:002010-07-01T09:04:52.015-04:00How true Devorah. While ProfK wants to label some...How true Devorah. While ProfK wants to label some jews as grapes or oranges, some OJ's would also label ProfK as a non-apple. The problem with labeling is that it is subjective. Unlike fruits, which are largely placed into categories based on objective, physical criteria, most labelling of people is based on subjective or non-physical criteria such as beliefs and practices. When people do try to apply physical characteristics to people, they usually are meaningless ones -- like skin color or ancestry. When it comes to humans, most labelling is done to divide people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2096776708897685863.post-18855846650124118412010-07-01T08:06:58.940-04:002010-07-01T08:06:58.940-04:00You are assuming that all the labeled frum groups ...You are assuming that all the labeled frum groups agree that they are all apples. Some of those groups don't believe that way. They may not generally hold with the theory of evolution but when it comes to themselves they believe they have evolved into a different, better fruit then the other fruits. Or maybe they believe that the other groups have evolved into a different, poorer fruit.<br /><br />And some of these groups don't believe that Reform and Conservative are fruits at all but something else. They don't care if these groups disappear altogether because they don't see them as close relatives.Devoranoreply@blogger.com